Thursday, October 12, 2006

Mesirah threat at gathering in Boro-Park

Due to the rain many people in Boro-Park opted to take their kids to local activities today rather than venture out. Because of this many of the places that provided entertainment were extremely overcrowded. At one specific even, hundreds of people were squashed into a place that was meant for a much smaller audience. Not everyone present was able to seat for the show, but everyone was able to see the action. At the show one Yingerman that had been disgusted by the overcrowding went up to the coordinator of the event and said, "This is outrageous, I'm going to call the inspectors down here." The coordinator of the event responded by saying, "This is why we hate making these events in Boro-Park."

Who is right?

Does overcrowding justify mesirah?

The yingerman should have demanded a refund and left. There is no yashrus on the side of the coordinator to sell out more tickets than the venue could sustain.


Does Pikuach Nefesh trump your perverse distortion of "Mesirah."

Death by fire and crushing happen. Preventing such a horror is not "Mesirah."


ther is definitely an issur of mesira by such a case.Why that is a reason to hate making events in boro park,I don't know,Boro park is anti-mesira town.


I agree with you on that, this is no mesirah threat its just a bone up his throat for the advantage theyre all taking from our community, renting smaller places b/c its cheaper for them but for the viewers full price and overselling tickets to stuff up that place, well thats not right and whoever threathened him was just frustrated and i understand him 100%


I think saving lives - which could, literally, be an issue - trumps the issur of mesirah. If you knew that Ploni was going around murdering people, say, you wouldn't do something about it? And the only practical thing to do, besides murdering him yourself, is mesirah.




im not saying that mesire is justified, but the state codes (like health codes in bungalow colonies, etc) are there to protect our children.

Why should our kids be exposed to conditions less safe and secur than the goyishe kids. Are the owners of the stores in bp smarter than the health commisioner, fire department and police (who are trained in making the guidelines with the number of people allowed in each store)????

What about in the bungalow colonies, are the managers of the colonies smarter than the health department? Besides for the fact that the managers judgement is biased bcz there is money involved. Besides for the chillul hashem when some shiksa shows up and sees what one yid does to another yid for money...

Is mesira justified there?

Halavai, batey din would be stronger and be able not just to collect our money and asser lipa and bicycles, and realy protect our interests.


The same people that say "mesira" today would be the first people "lawyered" up to sue if c"v there had been a mishap because of the overcrowding. Perhaps seeing a dangerous condition and ignoring it would make the same yingerman oiver on "lo sa'amd al dam reyecho"


It's time to grow up and cut the mesirah bullshit.the promoter of the event put everybody's life in danger.If a fire broke out,would it be mesirah to call the fire department?


Its not mesirah when a potentially life threatening situation exists. Massive overcrowding is a recipe for a disaster and Im tired of supposedly frum people feeling they can violate the law and put lives at risk and then scream mesirah as if they're the victim here.


"Mesirah" is now synonymous with "hiding corruption", "obstruction of justice", and a host of other crookedness anybody wants to be part of. This event was an absolute chillul HaShem and it is a mitzvah to get the coordinator arrested to prevent this chillul HaShem from recurring.


mesirah is not even allowed(halocah wise) when you are in danger you should rather sit in jail than give out your fellow jew!!!! in this case that you were not able to have a "seat" kol shkan!!!!!!!! its a shame!!!!! that this is what we became for a littel money or greed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Why shouldn't he threaten with a mesira?

He has a heter 100 Raabonim. The two Satmar Rabbonim have been in court for years.

The Lubavitcher Raabonim send to court with little cause for years.

Bobov is in court or was in court.

Munkatch was in court.

The list goes on.

The yingerman probaly thought he was doing a mitzva!


Look in Sefer Chafetz Chaim and ask a Rav, not every idiot on the internet.


Lo sa'amod al dam ra'echa is a mitzvah doraisa. Do not stand upon the blood of your brother. If it was dangerously overcrowded, particularly with children present, every adult Jew present was obligated to call the civil authorities, simply by calling 911 or 311. The call should have been made while the show was in progress. The Police, Fire or the Building Department would have then appeared, and taken control to alleviate the overcrowded condition.

Some people died at an overcrowded event at Columbia University a few years ago.


According to many poskim today feel the the MESIRA that we know of from the times of the gemorah etc does NOT exsist today,.Because mesira in those days were ossuer because the government killed you or jailed you to DIE, for petty violations and were very anti semitic.
Today its a whole different story, especially in america.
Worst that will happen for over xcrowding is a fine or minor slap on the wrist.


First of all I would like to know who this person is, according to my estimate he is a Chasiddishe slob that stinks from underarm odor, because typiclly these are the people that go to the Boro Park events, the better, well dressed, good smelling people were in places as Newport, Niagra Falls, Washington D.C., Hersheytown,etc., so we are talking about the people that make a chillul Hasem all year with their pot bellys, unkept clothes and smelly underarms, so what do you expect from them..
A normal well kept, well built good smelling Bucher or Yingerman would go over to the coordinator and tell him nicely that he should do something about the situation and try to convince him nicley to send the overcrowded people out, instead this Chassidhe slob starts screaming right away that he will be a Muser, yes this is what I mean ,they are allways making a Chillul Hashem starting with their physical appearence and ending with Mesira..


do a google search for the famous overcrowded nightclub fires a few years ago (one in Rhode Island) where people died and the people running the show went (and are still) to jail. Would we start up a collection for the rotzeach?


The owners of the club were not the ones sent to jail, it was the band promoter who was found liable becuase of the pyrotechnics. No one went to jail because of the overcrowding.

If you are going to site stories and sources get it correct. Is that asking for too much.


First of all I agree it's a terrible shame that some people take advantage of others to satisfy their greed - like, as someone above mentioned, charging high prices while providing the worst quality experience.

However, we have to admit to ourselves that sometimes there is a higher road that avoids the issue of mesirah altogether - and even bypasses the greed of these people. When you see the event is overcrowded you simply tell your children "It is putting our lives in danger to go into such a crowded building, let's rather go someplace else" even though the children might whine and the parents might have to shlep a little.

I have children and I know they would be upset if I didn't take them to an exciting event that they had been looking forward to, but I also have an obligation to protect their safety and to be mechanech them by setting an example of proper behavior.

And if you didn't know it was crowded until you already entered, and the proprietor refuses you a refund, you accept the loss and go somewhere else or even home. Threatening him is only damaging yourself, while maintaining your dignity and standards is setting a wonderful example for your children. They may not appreciate it right now, but believe me the lesson was absorbed.


watch out 11:31 this is a jewish site and nobody wants to read the filthy language you write!!!!! i could see u being deleted pretty pretty soon!!!


Let's see. First people must die horrible deaths, often in front of family and friends because we not only fail to take precaution but blatantly defy safety rules.
Then we must organize Yom Tefillahs and fasts because of the increased occurences of tragedies. Yet we refuse to accept responsibilities for our own actions. It has become very convenient to call every useless death "The will of Hashem". It absolves us and makes us feel good about our Bitochon and acceptance of His will.
Well that is alot of nonsense that hase caused many needless deaths. Every safety guideline proscribed and prescribed by the fire and building authorities is strictly reactionary, and came about as a result of people losing lives not as a means of preventing deaths.
A short episode should clarify one thing and that is that safety is paramount. The administrator of a Yeshiva in Monsey asked Reb Moshe Neuschloss Z"L, on two separate occasions whether it was permissible to report a driver to the police after he had passed the flashing red lights of a school bus. Reb Moshe Z"L was adamant both times using very strong condemnation against such drivers. He emphatically stated that it was not "permissible" but imperative that such a driver be reported and testified against because he was a Rodef min Hatorah.
We as Yidden have taken a popularity contest in seeing who can out-do the other on the "Hatorah chassah al mumoinom shel yisroel" (incidently a limud which is way significant)theme. It is very nice, helpful and sometimes amusing. But very few times in the entire torah, even in regard to the 3 aveiros chamuros, does HB"H insert the word "Meod". Notice that twice it is in direct conjunction with shmiras hanefesh. Venishmartem Meod and Ushmor nafshecho meod. Yet we sacrifice our own safety and the safety of our children for the benefit of amusement and convenience. Shame on all of us. Anyone causing a dangerous situation no matter how perceivably minor is a rodef and must be reported to the authorities.
This particular story might portray an individual with ulterior motives but the fact that overcrowding is the cause of multitudes of deaths every single year cannot be overlooked and ignored. Kudos to him. All you petty belly-achers wake up and realize the horrible reality.
And if what I just wrote doesn't ring true, consider this. Since 2000 there have been over 60 children killed by school buses in NYS. An incredibly safe record if statistics mean anything, considering that close to two million are transported every day. Of course statistics are suddenly meaningless when they concern the death of a close or loved one. Over 40% of those children are of frum families while the percentage of frum students using school buses don't even come close to one percent of the ridership. Something is horribly wrong with this picture. Yet the demand for convenience outweighs the demand for safety.
I don't care nor give credence to any of the Yom Tefilahs or mass gatherings to hear the latest annunciations of the self righteous if not pompous pontificators of our day until they step in and demand the compliance of ALL of us in the way of safety. "Chas V'Sholom" is a popularly repeated omen, yet it is entirely useless when precaution is tossed to the wind.


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