Tuesday, April 24, 2007
'Modesty buses' draw fire
When the Number 40 bus arrived, the most curious thing happened. Husbands left heavily pregnant wives or spouses struggling with prams and pushchairs to fend for themselves as they and all other male passengers got on at the front of the bus.
Women moved towards the rear door to get on at the back.
When on the bus, I tried to buck the system, moving my way towards the driver but was pushed back towards the other women.
These are what orthodox Jews call "modesty buses".
The separation system operates on 30 public bus routes across Israel.
The authorities here say the arrangement is voluntary, but in practise, as I found out, there is not much choice involved.
'Abuse and threats'
Naomi Regen is one of a group of women now taking the separation bus system to court. She is an orthodox Jew herself.
"I wasn't trying to start a revolution, all I wanted to do was get home," she tells me.
"I was in downtown Jerusalem and I saw a bus going straight to my neighbourhood and I got on and sat down, in a single seat behind the driver.
"It was a completely empty bus, and all of a sudden, some men started getting on, ultra-orthodox men. They told me I was not allowed to sit there, I had to go to the back of the bus."
Not only is the segregation system discriminatory, says Ms Regen, but it can also be dangerous, she says, for those like her who ignore it.
"I said to him look, if you bring me a code of Jewish law and show me where it's written that I have to sit at the back of the bus I'll move.
"And he tried to gain support from the rest of the passengers and I underwent a half-hour of pure hell - abuse, humiliation, threats, even physical intimidation."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6584661.stm
When the Number 40 bus arrived, the most curious thing happened. Husbands left heavily pregnant wives or spouses struggling with prams and pushchairs to fend for themselves as they and all other male passengers got on at the front of the bus.
Women moved towards the rear door to get on at the back.
When on the bus, I tried to buck the system, moving my way towards the driver but was pushed back towards the other women.
These are what orthodox Jews call "modesty buses".
The separation system operates on 30 public bus routes across Israel.
The authorities here say the arrangement is voluntary, but in practise, as I found out, there is not much choice involved.
'Abuse and threats'
Naomi Regen is one of a group of women now taking the separation bus system to court. She is an orthodox Jew herself.
"I wasn't trying to start a revolution, all I wanted to do was get home," she tells me.
"I was in downtown Jerusalem and I saw a bus going straight to my neighbourhood and I got on and sat down, in a single seat behind the driver.
"It was a completely empty bus, and all of a sudden, some men started getting on, ultra-orthodox men. They told me I was not allowed to sit there, I had to go to the back of the bus."
Not only is the segregation system discriminatory, says Ms Regen, but it can also be dangerous, she says, for those like her who ignore it.
"I said to him look, if you bring me a code of Jewish law and show me where it's written that I have to sit at the back of the bus I'll move.
"And he tried to gain support from the rest of the passengers and I underwent a half-hour of pure hell - abuse, humiliation, threats, even physical intimidation."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6584661.stm
Comments:
FaFrumpta shtuss. There is nothing in Halacha that requires this and there are many arguments to made against this. How about simply the chesed of helping a woman with her stroller or packages and offering a woman a seat. I guess the Bitul Mitzvas Aseh of Chesed is overridden by the Inyan of being overly frum. Remember rashi on the Nachash telling chava you see you can touch the Eitz Hadaas and nothing happens. Do not make up Issurin when no Issur exists.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by 
: April 24, 2007 11:14 AM
: April 24, 2007 11:14 AM
This is how the reform movement began too. Little steps at a time. First steps are "its not halachically mandated so lets do away with it." From there it, slowly but surely, progresses further.
Eventually these revolutionaries either join up with a reform like movement or simply lose their Jewish identity.
Eventually these revolutionaries either join up with a reform like movement or simply lose their Jewish identity.
Joseph: Perhaps this will lead to more people going off the derech. Like Anon at 11:14 said, there is zero basis in halacha for this. It only makes people uncomfortable for no good reason, and if I thought that was all that Yiddishkeit was about I would go off the derech too.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 24, 2007 5:47 PM
: April 24, 2007 5:47 PM
Nothing is wrong if you wont sit next to your wife for 20 minutes, she"ll manage instead of sitting next to her when shes highly pregnant wash the dishes and bath the kids and I'm sure she'll be mochel you and at the same time the fine yungerman who learns the whole day and wants to go to the Kosel to daven at the netz won't have to have a women sitting in front of him.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 24, 2007 8:24 PM
: April 24, 2007 8:24 PM
From anon 11:14 to Joseph.
Yes you are correct this is how the reform Movement began. by adding new things to Judaism. as the Chasam Sofer said, Chodosh Asur Min Hatorah.
This is called Chosid Shotah in Halacha. It is also an issur Doraisa of Onaas Devarim, and Malbin Pnei Chavero to the Women.
It is also a Chilul Hashem because people will compare Charedim to the Taliban amd will end up mocking Torah and those who learn it all because of Chumros of shtuss.Rav Volbe used to say that if a Talmid Chochom is properly engrossed in his Limud Hatorah while walking the streets,he will not notice the pritzus of the Gass.
Yes you are correct this is how the reform Movement began. by adding new things to Judaism. as the Chasam Sofer said, Chodosh Asur Min Hatorah.
This is called Chosid Shotah in Halacha. It is also an issur Doraisa of Onaas Devarim, and Malbin Pnei Chavero to the Women.
It is also a Chilul Hashem because people will compare Charedim to the Taliban amd will end up mocking Torah and those who learn it all because of Chumros of shtuss.Rav Volbe used to say that if a Talmid Chochom is properly engrossed in his Limud Hatorah while walking the streets,he will not notice the pritzus of the Gass.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 25, 2007 1:14 AM
: April 25, 2007 1:14 AM
More From Anon 11:14. The Torah teaches not to add or subtract from the mitzvos. Just like you are not allowed to be a reformer and subtract mitzvos, so to you are not allowed to be a reformer and add mitzvos. Just like you are not allowed to shake 5 minnim on sukkos, you are not allowed to create an issur where none exists.
There is no issur for a woman to sit in the front of a bus or to sit next to a man on a bus or for a man to sit next to a woman on a bus. There is no issur for men and woman to walk on the same streets together. Communities that enforce these kind of restrictions are no better than the Tziddukim and the Essenes who rejected Torah SheBaal Peh and helped contribute to Churban Beis Hamikdash.
Making Judaism look like Talibanism is a Chillul Hashem.
If you want seperate busses and seperate streets go live in Afghanistan or New Square.
There is no issur for a woman to sit in the front of a bus or to sit next to a man on a bus or for a man to sit next to a woman on a bus. There is no issur for men and woman to walk on the same streets together. Communities that enforce these kind of restrictions are no better than the Tziddukim and the Essenes who rejected Torah SheBaal Peh and helped contribute to Churban Beis Hamikdash.
Making Judaism look like Talibanism is a Chillul Hashem.
If you want seperate busses and seperate streets go live in Afghanistan or New Square.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 25, 2007 9:25 AM
: April 25, 2007 9:25 AM
Anon11:14/1:14, I remind that in Judaism we have something known as "M'Drabbonim." Separation of the genders in situations not directly required "M'Daraisa" is not new, but is as old as Judaism itself.
Like the Sadducees, Karaites, and Reform, you can easily dismiss these regulations as "add-ons" to the Torah. But like the Sadducees, Karaites, and Reform, you will slowly but surely drift away from Judaism, one little step at a time.
Like the Sadducees, Karaites, and Reform, you can easily dismiss these regulations as "add-ons" to the Torah. But like the Sadducees, Karaites, and Reform, you will slowly but surely drift away from Judaism, one little step at a time.
Ms Regan I am posting this hoping you will "google" your name as you probably do every day since you sound like your seeking for attention..... So let me say this bluntly whether what you claim was done to you is true or not the Chillul Hashem your making by voicing your complaints on world wide media outlets is wrong! and is to be condemnd. In Israel I have no problem with you going public (if indeed it's true) but to go to BBC is just plain sick. By what the article quotes you as saying it sounds like you are all hyped up with a terible "sinah" tawards frum yiddin I am surprised you didn't mention the ezras nushim problem! so take this if I were on the bus and saw a lady with an attitude like yours you can bet that I would punch the hell out of you too! and may be zoche to do tshuvah although there is no kapara on chillul hashem besides missa.....So let it be...
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 25, 2007 4:19 PM
: April 25, 2007 4:19 PM
Anonymous11:14 - Yidden have had Takonos from the Rabbonim all the time. If you don't like that you are acting like a Tzidduki.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 25, 2007 5:07 PM
: April 25, 2007 5:07 PM
I think her new name should be Rosa Parkowitz
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 25, 2007 8:59 PM
: April 25, 2007 8:59 PM
From anon 11:14. There are Takanos Midrabbanan promulgated by the likes of the Anshei Knesses Hagedola and there are Minhagey shtus promulgated by Amei Haaretz, zealots, and Kannaim, who think being frummer than thou means imposing their own world view on the rest of the Tzibbur. We fortunately have a Shulchan Aruch and A Mesorah which we should follow rather than try improving on these time tested vehicles to serving Hashem. The Karaites and the Sadducees were the Machmirim of their generations. No fire on Shabbos for chulent, an eye for an eye literally etc. This new religion being created which includes new prohibitions like mixed seating on busses is in league with the haskafa of those who reject Torah she baal peh and our Mesorah..
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 25, 2007 10:00 PM
: April 25, 2007 10:00 PM
Anon11:14, Please come back in a few generations and let us know if your grandchildren keep Shabbos.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 25, 2007 10:35 PM
: April 25, 2007 10:35 PM
From anon 11:14 to Chaim. I could point to both the children and grandchildren of various Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolim of our generation that are no longer Shomrei Shabbos or Shomrei Mitzvos. Does that indicate that that there parents are no longer in the Torah camp?
Shame on you.
Shame on you.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 26, 2007 7:52 AM
: April 26, 2007 7:52 AM
Anon11:14, You missed my point. Of course they are. But with your attitude you are risking losing your future generations.
Do you oppose the Rabbonim having assured Televisions in Jewish homes? There is no halacha M'Daraisa or M'Drabbonim assuring Televisions in the home. It must be "adding new things" as you denounced.
Do you oppose the Rabbonim having assured Televisions in Jewish homes? There is no halacha M'Daraisa or M'Drabbonim assuring Televisions in the home. It must be "adding new things" as you denounced.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 26, 2007 11:12 AM
: April 26, 2007 11:12 AM
Imagine a nudist strolling down a naked beach. Any unwholesome image displayed before his eyes hardly faze him. Why? Because this depraved individual has strayed so far down his immoral path, he becomes desensitized to his decedent lifestyle, and of those around him. You can talk until your blue in the face, and would be challenged in your attempts to explain why such behavior in indecent.
For all those who are flippantly professing their opinions and endorsing Reagan’s actions, I ask you to take a step back. Could your position find its roots in the fact that you are so disillusioned about your own spiritual diet? Has your lifestyle desensitized you, to the extent, that you can not appreciate a Torah true lifestyle? Maybe you should discuss your beliefs with a Rabbi before entering this forum spewing forth such anti-Semitic thoughts. I am sure any Modern Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform blog would drink from your tainted waters. This religious arena is not the proper place.
I pray for the day when you will truly be enlightened with authentic Jewish wisdom.
For all those who are flippantly professing their opinions and endorsing Reagan’s actions, I ask you to take a step back. Could your position find its roots in the fact that you are so disillusioned about your own spiritual diet? Has your lifestyle desensitized you, to the extent, that you can not appreciate a Torah true lifestyle? Maybe you should discuss your beliefs with a Rabbi before entering this forum spewing forth such anti-Semitic thoughts. I am sure any Modern Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform blog would drink from your tainted waters. This religious arena is not the proper place.
I pray for the day when you will truly be enlightened with authentic Jewish wisdom.
Dear Jack,
Have you also been "desensitized" like the nude man - note the sarcasm - to the point where you go by the name "JACK"?! What happened to all your yiddishkeit?! Is yaakov or yoely or whatever it really is - not good enough for you?
You are as hypocritical as the people on the bus who see nothing wrong with beating on a woman - note the aveirah of shomer negiah - in order not to sit near her? If they were genuinely concerned about their holiness, they would have just let her sit there and opened a mishnayos and focused on that.
Have you also been "desensitized" like the nude man - note the sarcasm - to the point where you go by the name "JACK"?! What happened to all your yiddishkeit?! Is yaakov or yoely or whatever it really is - not good enough for you?
You are as hypocritical as the people on the bus who see nothing wrong with beating on a woman - note the aveirah of shomer negiah - in order not to sit near her? If they were genuinely concerned about their holiness, they would have just let her sit there and opened a mishnayos and focused on that.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 27, 2007 12:08 PM
: April 27, 2007 12:08 PM
The last comment who compared using an English name to desensitizing Judaism (and then comparing it to "beating a woman") is completely off base that it is laughable.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 27, 2007 2:40 PM
: April 27, 2007 2:40 PM
Humm...sounds like Anon 12:08 PM is pulling at strings to cover a open wound. Has Jack got you thinking twice about your religion? The only thing you can manage to make fun of is is name! His important point has you spewing forth twisted logic. OK Anon 12:08, you showed Jack. So his name is really Yoelli. Great - now mend your perverted ways and grow up.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 29, 2007 10:45 AM
: April 29, 2007 10:45 AM
And banning TV's is also an "add-on" to the Torah? So everything the Torah doesn't specifically specify is okay with you?
All the Jewish splinter groups of the past used that same twisted logic.
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All the Jewish splinter groups of the past used that same twisted logic.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : April 29, 2007 11:38 AM
: April 29, 2007 11:38 AM
