Chaptzem Blog!      

Chaptzem, Tell me to you really get turned by reading these "Open Letters" don't you find it interesting that this one kid went thru so much abuse while there are tens of thousands that come out pretty good (no one is perfect), I tend to think this kid has some psychological problam, if every school and rebbi abuses and gropes him I think that is his imagination not reality and don't you see anything twisted when someone writes "I wouldn’t eat kosher food if i was starving to death" just goes to show there are some other issues with this kid besids his schools and Rebbis

p.s. I am not one for whitewashing someone elses sins but in this case it just does not add up

 

let me predict what kind of responses this post will feature: those who are extremely opposed to the letter and will tell the boy off, saying how do you write specific names, it's lashon harah, and why aren't you frum etc.
And those who will agree with him and write their own stories.
the moral of this letter as i see it is to realize that there are skunks in every environment whether we'd like to admit it or not. now the questio is - WHAT are we going to do about it. how will we respond, react, to make this a safer and happier world for our own children.

 

It seems this kid can use all the psychological help he can get, after running around to so many schools,(most kids stay in the same school, their entire childhood) I wonder why he didn't try catholic schools or public schools so he can see what’s really all about!, than maybe he will find some good in yeshivas on his re-bound.

 

Can the reader please give me a hint as to who he is? I was in your class in Chasan Soifer and witnessed the D'vorkes incident (it was DW who complained to the Rebbe).

Wishing you the best.

 

This "kid" is now about 32 yrs old. I was there during the first story.

 

Would it be possible to get a poll of how much abuse is currently happening? The reason I ask, is because if it is ongoing, I would step forward and detail the abuse I experienced while growing in a chasidishe yeshiva. These monsters need to be aware that they're actions will land them in jail.

 

This is a very moving account, and it rings true.

To write this story, the young man must be strong. I hope and pray he finds love and happiness in his life.

There are some good people who are trying to clean up the yeshivas.

Shavua tov.

 

Seems you bounced around yeshivos and camps...

What else would one expect of a troublesome youth as yourself.

 

your always going to be a jew no mater what you do and i can see you still have the pintal yid in you by still staying in contact with your routes and reading thes blogs so maybe you can see that it is such a big thing that these stuff hapen in our comunity becuse we are expected better where in the secular world in happens day in day out without notice soo think in to it and give it another try so your pintal yid will spark in to a flame for more generations that will be frum jews because you may have a good time now with out all these responsibilitys but what are you living for if not for the next generation and don't think fore one moment that your felow jewish brothers dont love you becude we allways do and god does even more you just have to rech your hand out
soo long with love
your jewish brother

 

Pat,
> What else would one expect of a troublesome youth as yourself.

Who said he is troublesome? Besides, I imagine seeing and being victim of the sort of abuse detailed in the story would drive many away from Orthodoxy.

 

I went to Yeshiva Toras Emes where we had a first grade Rebbe named Ritterman who delighted in refusing to allow us to go to the bathroom and forced kids to make in their pants.We had Silbermans who drank from his thermos all day(I suspect there was more to the thermos) and got redder throughout the day and was very verbally abusive. We had Ausfressor who wouldnt let kids go to the office when they were sick and made kids stand up for hours when they put their head down( it turns out I had 105.8 fever that night).We had Joe Klein in The Mir the abusive principal that whacked you so hard for forgetting your hat that your face swelled up.We had a candy machine owner in the Mir that abused kids in return for candy up at his candy storage room near the roof.The bottom line is all these things went on in our day and you should never think people are making stuff up!!

 

How about the scumbag ehrentrau in mir yeshiva who would delight in putting kids in garbage cans beating the living daylights out of kids who he did not like throwing his blue balls at your head and hitting you with his pointer and then lying in his british accent im still waiting to meet you one day so you can explain . i think he got sexual gratification from abuse. it a samm wonder im still religous but with loving parents and support anything is possible. but all know the abuse in mir yeshiva ketana now i understand it got alot better.
to the letter writer be strong brother

 

I sympathize with the abused but is it right to publicly mame people on a public blog? This is not a court room. The person can't defend himself. When all is said and done ,we're still hearing only one side of the story even if it's true. Please...Stop giving names.

 

To 1:40 these animals should be named in public so parents can be aware of who is teaching their kids come to think of it i remember the mir candyman well any way thank you chaptzem

 

At Breuers', there was Rabbi Lowenthal who smacked one cheek and pinched the other cheek at the same time. Then there was old Mr. Wolf, who would throw you on the floor and then stump on you. Last but not least, there was Rabbi Kreiger, who died last week, who walked around with a stick and got enjoyment hitting you with his stick. In the comments section of another site last week, they said what a great person he was. All this was approved by Jacob Breuer.

 

sympathize with the abused but is it right to publicly mame people on a public blog? This is not a court room. The person can't defend himself.
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There is no defense. What's the Rabbi gonna say, I thought he had WMD??

 

Yeah, and there was Wisiltsky from Torah Vodaas who would beat the crap out of 1st graders and abusive 'older bochur' Chaitovsky the sexual abuser....

 

As for the petch or rulers etc...
that's no big deal; these are just old school europeans using old school methods that don't work in America. It's the kicking and stomping that are wrong. And believe you me i have seen a fair share of the kicking and stomping in YTV. As for what goes on in Chasan Sofer I only hear, but I also see kids who went there for elementary school. Pretty much anyone that I know who went to Chasan Sofer is at least a little meesed up. (Tuna Baigels are the best to come out of that hellhole). Besides the "rebbi" beating the talmud, the talmud often fought back. Which ever way you look at it the picture is f-ed.
Back to YTV. Fink was known to use very "rough handed" tactics without investigating all the facts. Still he is a fine Jew despite his faults. However, wilner, may he rot in hell, mamesh single handedly turned kids off the derech. He publicly humiliated kids countless times. He openly hit on the slut mothers (i don't wonder how their kids got into yeshiva) when they dropped their kids off in the morn. I could write a whole book about this clown. It's unfortunate that R'Shechter (or whatever his name is) from chaim berlin stood behind wilner in Bais Din. Ilost all respect for him. I also lost faith in the entire rabbinic establishment. Not in rabbis- just the establishment. The board is virtually powerless in YTV against the Rabbis. Thats why i decided that i will not give money to that yeshiva until the hanhalla is overhauled.
As a whole YTV is a decent Yeshiva; just a few horror stories from back in the day.

 

As a whole YTV is a decent Yeshiva; just a few horror stories from back in the day.
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What?????????? Have you heard of Sekula or Elya Katz??????????

 

my concern is what is going on now? I know there was alot of abusive in the past generations, kids who are now over 30. But what now. I have no brothers and only 1 son. Luckily we live out of town. But what happens when he is ready for mesivta, I am afraid to send him away. What is going on now, what goes on in the dorms, is he better of in a co-ed hebrew high school out of town or a chasidisha yeshiva in new york. I am scared to make the decision. My husband has horror stories from his years in a chasidish yeshiva. But does not elaborate. What is going on today? How are parents suppose to protect there sons from the outside world or is it our inside world we should be scared of. Because the boys know the outside is bad -

 

Oh and lets be sure not to forget Rabbi Lieberman obm from the Mir better known as Rebs. He would force kids to bend over his desk on a daily basis and whack them with a large heavy wooden paddle.He only chose the smaller cuter kids however and left the bigger kids alone. The bottom line is now that we are all parents,these things are no longer acceptable.It does not atone for all these Rebbeim that can't even be fired because they just bring the school to Bais Din and get rehired.

 

Wait.... I remembered being tortured by kugelman in pre-1a in be'er shmuel in the late '60s - early seventies.... I heard later that he actually broke a 5 year olds arm during this period...it was hushed up....but after that, I think he wound up being the principle of karlin-stolin...today, u would'nt recognize him since he has that whole litvishe getup....including the white beard.... what a sadist! oh..and let's not forget freidman y"sv in the 1st grade in the same yeshiva...he would take a kid and pull his pants down in front of the class, then he would put him under his desk and kick him occasionally while teaching chumash to the rest of the class...this is the G-d honest truth...I am not making this up....Most of the rebeim of that period were former concentration survivors who became psychos and took it out on those little boys....I don't know who to blame more...hitler y"mv ot those psychotic rebbes who were hired for peanuts....

 

Wait.... I remembered being tortured by kugelman in pre-1a in be'er shmuel in the late '60s - early seventies.... I heard later that he actually broke a 5 year olds arm during this period...it was hushed up....but after that, I think he wound up being the principle of karlin-stolin...today, u would'nt recognize him since he has that whole litvishe getup....including the white beard.... what a sadist!
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Yup, I had him too! He had three different size sticks + a wooden ruler which he used on us Pre-1A kids. It's amazing, some things you just cannot forget.

Note, he didn't hide his sticks, they were on the wall for all to see.

 

Most of the rebeim of that period were former concentration survivors who became psychos and took it out on those little boys....I don't know who to blame more...hitler y"mv ot those psychotic rebbes who were hired for peanuts....
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Good thinking, but you are wrong. I had both Rokeach and Kugelman, and both were not old enough to be Holocaust survivors.

 

Anonymous - Do not spread false tails about good people. I was in Rebs class, lived near him, and worked for him in the summers upstate. He was a true tzaddik and did so much for the Rebbeim's rights in Mir to make sure they were protected financially and their families had insurance etc. I hope you beg mechila because you picked the wrong Rebbe to fabricate a story about.

 

Thankfully , the abusers are the few and not the norm. Having said that , remember that hitting was ok in ALL schools , Jewish , private, Catholic for years and years.
BULLIES...Ok. What's being left out here that some kids got hit because they were VILDE CHAYOS... Chutzpenianks , no Derech Eretz and were vicious bullies.
Bullies are found in mostly all classes and cause heavy emotional damage to other kids.

I'm not saying that the bullies should be tortured by teachers but they DO need to get beaten to remember a lesson. I have no pity on these vilde mamzeirim who taunt and harass their classmates to no end. AND... very little is done by administration .

So please include in this picture little chayes who make life miserable for students and teachers alike. Some of you here may even have been one of these.

 

I'm not saying that the bullies should be tortured by teachers but they DO need to get beaten to remember a lesson. I have no pity on these vilde mamzeirim who taunt and harass their classmates to no end. AND... very little is done by administration .
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In which one of the cases was there a bully? Where you there?

 

Z-dog,

Interesting read. I have to say though, it doesn't sound like you're not frum cuz of what happend. It sounds like you just didn't wanna be frum like a lot of other ppl. And I can even understand it, it doesn't have to be anything deep, it's the Yaytzer Hurah in all of us. Some ppl take it farther than others.

What I find interesting is, for someonne who wouldn't eat kosher if his life depended on it, why would you read this blog if not for something still pulling you to yidishkeit?

 

When I was a 5 year old in Skver Yeshiva I had a rebbe named Yisroel Herman (I think he lives in Monsey)He was a terrible monster. He had a rule, if you needed to go to the bathroom in middle of class, he would let you go but when you came back, he would hit you. I came home everyday with crap in my pants. One time before Peisach he threatened that anyone that didnt learn the Hagadah properly would be hit, naturaly I was unable to focus on the Hagadah, but could only focus on the petch I would get if I didnt know it well. Suffice to say that he beat me on the tooches with a 2x2 square stick for about an hour,. I was unable to sit on the bus ride home (I remember the bus driver commenting that ------- was the best behaved boy on the bus). That Friday my mother gave me a bath and she saw that my tooches was black and blue, so she asked who did this to you, I said my rebbe. (I got a day off from school the next week)

Then when I was 10 when I was in skver camp, some kid who shall remain nameless snitched on me that I say dirty words, My rebbe Chaim Shloime Braun interogated me for an hour and a half by taking me outside the classroom (it was actualy a hut with screen windows in the woods) and he broke about 9 or 10 branches on me, but I refused to admit anything (I figured if I admit anything I would be beaten even worse) The classroom was next to the big Zal and by this time the whole yeshiva ketana came out to watch him beat me. He had to stop for lunch (talk about being saved by the bell). After seeing that he wasn’t getting me to admit anything he sent me to the pricipal. Shapiro the principal, took me into his office and threatned me that if I didnt admit I would be beaten till s'vet gissen blit (till blood would be pouring) so I admited to saying F*** once and some other words.I had black marks on my body for the rest of the summer.

You may think I am bitter or angry about all this, but im not, I have moved on and built a nice life, with a beautiful family to show for it. In fact, I would like to thank those skverer rebbes, for had they not beat me like they did I would probably have built a life in New Square, and my kids would have had to endure the same beatings I did.

 

Sekula and Katz happen to be nice guys as long as you stroke their egos. True they are killing YTV, but they have never done anything like the things in the article above. Don't demonize them - Just call for their resignation.

 

To moish at 1:51 & 2:19

When were u at beer shmuel? about kugelman, I think his parents were holocaust survivors although i'm not sure. its said that first generation survivors also had major psychological issues due to their parents experiences.

As for anon 10/23/07 @ 3:40pm, It may be true that at that time, it was standard practice to discipline kids with petch and other beatings. But I fail to see how a rebbe can pull a kids pants down in front of a class and kick him while he is teaching chumash can produce anything but a truamatized and messed up kid. There was a lot of violent abuse in those days and I cannot blame Z-Dog for turning out the way he did. Bottom line: there is no excuse for excessive violence against a 5 year...no matter how rotten that kid may be. Violence only begets more violence...

 

RE:...In which one of the cases was there a bully? Where you there?...


No , I wasn't there but I know about the Rebbes mentioned above , and I don't excuse their behavior. I've seen some physical abuse myself as a student. However , I've also seen vicious little thugs harass students and teachers and got what was coming to them. Some kids made the lives of teachers and rebbes worthless with their daily azus ponim and vildkeit. Today it's even worse. You can't look at a child with a smirk or parents will up the next day blasting the rebbe/teacher.

My point was , let's admit that many kids were just bad...really bad.

 

Sekula and Katz happen to be nice guys as long as you stroke their egos. True they are killing YTV, but they have never done anything like the things in the article above. Don't demonize them - Just call for their resignation.
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I am barely frum, thanks to those two. No, they never beat me, but they showed me what Rabbis and Judaism are all about.

 

My point was , let's admit that many kids were just bad...really bad.
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But what does have to do with the Rebbe's we are talking about!!!!

 

To moish at 1:51 & 2:19

When were u at beer shmuel? about kugelman, I think his parents were holocaust survivors although i'm not sure. its said that first generation survivors also had major psychological issues due to their parents experiences.
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I think it was either 1980 or 1981. The interesting thing is that he did not hide his sticks or his behavior. How come the Yeshiva administration didn't feel the need to stop this???

 

Rokeach is a Holocaust survivor. He was old 20 years ago. That's till no excuse.

 

to moish from beer shmuel:

When i was in beer shmuel, the schar limud every month was a paltry $15 - $20 a month. Now, if you really think about it, what type of rebbe do you think your gonna get for that princely sum? Not to excuse those sadistic monsters, but, as the saying goes, you get what you pay for....

 

Do not disparage Rebs, Rabbi Leiberman.

He was a great man and and an awesome well rounded beloved rebbe and tzadik both in the Mir and in Camp Horim!

We all love and miss Rabbi Leiberman, aka REBS.

Ephraim

 

it is true that yeshivos hurt kids phisicaly and emotionaly.
i know it still hapens,
WHERE ARE THE PARENTS?
as a parent myself i can not imagine anything like that hapenning to my kids, if it did i would not stop until that rebbe is fired!!! or in jail, g-d knows the
trauma those kids suffer,
make sure your kids will not be afraid to talk to you.
keep comunication open, it starts when they are little,and it will prevent them from doing drugs and other things later on in life.
as to blaming such acts to become not frum.....that is just an excuse, if you are a strong human being with true emunah,that wouln't happen, you have a choice in life,and perhaps a goal and that is where your focus should be, not at getting back to those teachers by becomming not frum.
talk to true mechanchim wich are a lot.

 

as to blaming such acts to become not frum.....that is just an excuse, if you are a strong human being with true emunah,that wouln't happen, you have a choice in life,and perhaps a goal and that is where your focus should be, not at getting back to those teachers by becomming not frum.
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Do you see how this can impact someone's emunah?

 

....if you are a strong human being with true emunah,that wouln't happen, you have a choice in life,and perhaps a goal and that is where your focus should be, not at getting back to those teachers by becomming not frum. ....

True... Becoming not frum because of a few shows there are other issues in the person's life. Blaming the sins of a few on many and leaving a set of beliefs , religion or system usually indicates something else under the surface...You can be traumatized by some people but if you quit on your background because of them then you've got a PEKEL somewhere else.

 

HAVE YOU ANY SHAME WHATSOEVER! WHY THE --- DID YOU POST THIS!!!!

 

HAVE YOU ANY SHAME WHATSOEVER! WHY THE --- DID YOU POST THIS!!!!
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What's your problem?

 

I am barely frum, thanks to those two. No, they never beat me, but they showed me what Rabbis and Judaism are all about.

October 24, 2007 8:50 AM

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You are stupid. The Torah is perfect, people are not.
You have no right to leave Judiasm because of the way some shmoiger rabbi treated you. You should have left YTV not Judiasm.

 

Seems that's it's only the chassidishe/charedi yeshivas where the sexual abuse issue is rampant, although I'm sure it does happen in the MO but definitely to a lesser degree.

 

If the Torah is perfect, then how come people who follow it act like such asses?

.. because they don't follow everything in it. What part of that don't you WANT to understand??? You don't need to be Einstein to understand it.

 

because they don't follow everything in it. What part of that don't you WANT to understand??? You don't need to be Einstein to understand it.
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What part of the Torah are they not following?

 

S*** man,

I went to a really terrible school to that used to beat the **** out of us. I still rememeber the rage of the head rabbi that smacked our heads off. Oh and my best freind was also se***lly molested in another yeshiva. I am still suffering from what went on. I recently met an old classmate who told me " hey dont you remember Rabbi ..... I said yes of course he used to beat the garbage out of us if we weren't following the Gemorrah with our finger. He said he was just arrested for s*x abuse. I said i dont rember him doing that stuff, just hurting us physically. I asked him, do you"? He didnt answer me.
But you know what I still love Jews. Those **** animals that hurt us and made us suffer and instilled a deep rage inside of me will get their part, but i still love yiddishkiet and I still love jews. Yes for many years these so called rabbis did horrific things and they were protected and we were maligned as Loshon Horah guys that were 'Rabbi Haters' and just looking for a story but let those people come to me and I will tell them what really happened. I am sorry for what happened to you and if all of us acted more like a family maybe this type of **** would not happen as often. I hope you are doing well and have a beautiful family as I B'H do.

 

IF YOU DON'T LIKE JEWS, THEN CHECK OUT THE CATHOLIC PRIESTS AND YOU WILL STAY JEWISH.
I HAVE THREE SONS THE OLDEST IS 37.
MY BOYS WENT TO THE MOST CHASIDISHE YESHIVAHS. THEY WERE NEVER BEATEN.
ONE OF MY SONS HAD HIS HAD TWISTED BY A REBBE WHEN HE WAS 12 YEARS OLD. THE REBBE BOUGHT HIM HOME AND APOLOGIZED BECAUSE HIS ARM WAS BROKEN.
I NEVER COMPLAINED TO THE PRINCIPLE. BUT THE REBBE WAS EXPELLED FROM THE YESHIVAH ANYWAYS.
WHAT YESHIVAHS ALLOW REBBES WHO ARE ABUSIVE TO TEACH BOYS?

 

MY BOYS WENT TO THE MOST CHASIDISHE YESHIVAHS. THEY WERE NEVER BEATEN.
ONE OF MY SONS HAD HIS HAD TWISTED BY A REBBE WHEN HE WAS 12 YEARS OLD.
---------
Anybody see the contradiction there?

 

I know that Gold in vein wasn"t that bad at all. It is also a total lie that gold and his wife ran a brothel or did drugs. he as had a very hard life and there was no need to humiliate him like this. I learned in his class. whenever he was in class he actually was a great rebbe and made the learning very exiting. the problam was that he was busy with to many other things and left class alot (which the kids actually loved). He had a miner lisp but I wouldn't call that a major speach defect.
I feel very bad for the auther of that letter but you could tell he was very bitter & willing to smear anyone in the process even though he had no fist hand info.
Leave the poor guy alone

 

Let me just say to all those people who say that such tpye of physical abuse had no effect on their future lives as parents themselves. Children who are physically or sexually abused at an early age, do not comprehend or react to this right away. It may take many years or even decades of repressed feelings to come out and affect them given certain external stimuli. Even at that point, the person might not realize why they are acting or feeling that way. The bottom line is, there is no excuse for this type of behavior even when the child is being very difficult. I feel rebbes and even parents must be trained on how to handle situations regarding children so that these abuses do not occur. Yes, I said even parents, beleive it or not.

 

I was in golds class( may he rot in hell) I know first hand of the horrors he perpetuated in his class room, there was this one kid Weismandel who he beat the living hell out of on a regular basis, whats worse is that his father not only knew of the beatings but encouraged them.
Then there was my third grade teacher Rabbi (LOL) Herman, I dont think I can put into words the physical and emotional trauma this less then human dished out to everyone. I was bitch slapped at least once a week as was at least a third of the class, in addition to he would smoke like two packs a day in class( you were lucky if you could see the hand coming through the thick cloud of ciggarete smoke)
I could go on and on, suffice to say Im sure that all these so called rabbis have a whole section reserved for them in hell.
Last but not least (Achron Achron Choviv or something like that) The head lifeguard in the 1980's "Weinstien" of viener camp is a pedophile who should seek help (or castration What ever's faster and cheaper.
Fight the good fight.
You are not Alone.
More to come

 

WHY DON'T YOU EMPHASIZE ON THE THOUSANDS OF REBBES WHO ARE LOVING AND REALLY MEAN EVERYTHING L'SHEM SHEMEIM.
99.99% OF THESE REBBES DO A GREAT JOB AND SHOULD GET ACKNOWLEDGED FOR IT. LETS FOCUS ON THE REBBES WHO ARE GREAT.
MAYBE WE SHOULD POST ALL THE POSITIVE THING OF MANY REBBES WHO SAVED BOYS FROM ABUSIVE HOMES.
LETS GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE...
MY BROTHERS AS WELL AS MY HUSBAND WAS TAUGHT BY REBBES WHO WERE HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS AND I DO NOT REMEMBER THEM MENTIONING ANYTHING ABOUT ABUSE.

 

5:18
The idea is to warn parents of predators in our mists who have access to our children. There are many loving rabbaim who do gods work but there are a lot rabbaim were chinuch is there only option. There are no background checks done or psychological testing done. And mind you ,You were not there, you say your husband and brothers never mentioned anything about abuse, say for instance they were abused, I dont think they would scream it from the rooftops or tell you , perhaps. That is why there are so many anonymous posters here.
Long live the queen

 

I hope everyone has a abuse-free shabbos . Let us start a abuse free program, where from sundown Friday till sunset Saturday no one is touched inappropriately or severely beaten by an "educator".
Kol tov

 

The point of a blog is to vent about a particular topic/incident that affected you. Thats why many negative stories are being told: since one that had a negative experience and suffered emotionally , physically whatever still must vent about his.her particular experiences. So all you morons that are blasting us for telling stories about what happened to us when you yourself never experienced what we went through shut the #### up. You dont like what you are reading go comment about other stupidity like s-o building another story on his house or vandals breaking glass at a bus stop. However for the sake of the community and of the serious sin of Loshon Horah that destroyed our holy Bais Hamikdash and continues to be the reason why we are stuck in golus without the presence of our Holy G-D,if the desired result can be obtained without blasting a particular rebbe or individual then that should be the tactic. However I dont blame you for venting about specific people, ecspecially since they may continue to do the same things that they did to us, to other children, If anyone ever touches my child they will never be able to use whatever body part that they used to abuse. Meanwhile, I hope we can stop fighting like a bunch of arabs and focus on chesed and each other so that G-D can end all of our troubles as soon as possible.

 

to anon 10/29/07 @ 11:03am

Amen. Cain Yirbu....

 

Wow.

I'm going to post this comment with my real blog name, so that no one thinks I'm "making this up"-- I think these incidents need to be publicized and these monsters, those who are still alive, need to be exposed for what they are. Yes, even if their actions were committed 20 years ago, the effects of those actions are still walking around wounded today. There should be no statute of limitations on abuse.

I went to Yeshiva of Brooklyn in the late 70s and I had Rabbi Cohen, who kicked me around the floor. And Ms. Birnbaum (a woman---! Who probably wasn't older than I am now), who made me lie on my back in front of the classroom door so that my classmates could step on me as they went in and out.

Then I went to Karlin-Stolin, where I remember Kugelman (the guy who looked like he had TWO full beards sprouting from his chin), though I never had him- I had Klinger in 5th grade, who used to hold all our fingers together while he smacked the tips with a ruler. I also remember how he used to rub his hands together before he slapped me (why? To warm them for my face?), and the smell of his hand soap. Then there was Rabbi Goldberger, the tall, gaunt, sixth grade rebbi, who used to unroll his stringy beard and comb it into his gemara with his fingers. He would take down a wooden window-shade roller rod from above the window and let fly if you "lost the place". We also had a math teacher, Mr. Golub, who threw a kid into a wall so hard it left a caved-in spot in the wall. That got him fired-- I guess because that left evidence.

Onward to Mir. I remember the candy guy... can't recall his name, but he used to give me rides to school in his big Chevy Impala. I'm pretty sure he didn't assault me (I wasn't anything special to look at). And of course, there was Joe Klein, the principal-- with his 'sausage fingers', and "the keys" ("heh heh heh..."). Klein once literally knocked me to the floor with a slap. My glasses went one way, my yarmulke another, and I'm staring up at the fluorescents. My infraction? Coming late to class. Over the years, I was slapped additional times for other "infractions". He yanked my mishmar chavrusah up by his collar, pulled him out of the gym, and pummelled him with slaps like the poor kid was in a Three Stooges short.I once saw him hit a kid so hard that he cut his hand on the kid's braces and had to have his hand bandaged for two weeks. The kid was talking during Ma'ariv.

There was Rabbi Eckstein, too-- "scarface", because of the long scar running down his right cheek into his beard. He once kicked me in the ass hard enough to send me sprawling. Why? I was carrying a heavy armload of textbooks and couldn't turn the classroom doorknob, so I "knocked" on the door with my foot. He saw me "kicking" yeshiva property and flew down the hall to "teach me a lesson". Idiot.

I remember "Rebs", (he died of a brain tumor? I think), though I never had a problem with him.

There is no excuse for these "rebbes". They were adults, probably at least as old then as we are now, and able to differentiate right from wrong. And for every person who comes forward, how many more are bearing their scars silently, living life a hollow shell? How many Shalom Auslanders are walking around out there because of people like this?

 

I remember kugelman when he was clean shaven. He reminded me of a nazi kapo with his ice blue eyes and very dark 5 o'clock shadow. he used to scream at me in his litvishe yiddish, "farvoss hute dos getine, enfer mich!!" and then wham-o... did'nt know what hit me...

 

I hope to be the next Shalum Auslander

 

I applaud Chaptzem for raising this issue and giving people an opportunity to share their tales of horror. Perhaps in expressing your respective stories of pain, you will find ways to heal and grow.

I went to Bobover Yeshivah, and though it hasn't been mentioned here, I can assure you that we experienced the same levels of Achzurious and Retzicha described in the other Yeshivahs. This was especially so in the younger grades where we were saddled with Melamdim with very little patience, old fashioned ideas about raising children and in a number of instances, an unbridled glee in hurting others.

Boruch Hashem I have remained Frum, a Maamin and Hasidic, but it was no thanks to the kind of daily abuse to which we were subject. Without going into names of the Melamdim (I’m in my 30’s – you can figure it out) they enjoyed all sorts of perverse and sadistic activities: stripping children, beating with Mr. Stick and Mr. Strap faces, hands, buttocks, legs, torsos (one Melamed liked to poke students with a stick as he passed them – hard enough to cause black and blue marks) and all in front of everyone else. I and my classmates witnessed numerous multiple face Slappings that resulted in bloody noses, children welted and blistered as they were beaten with belts and wood. I saw a Melamed yank both of a child's Peyos out of his head. (That at least brought the parents in.)

But this brings me to my point. While we were subject to this because of the sadistic behavior of a few Melamdim, and really a few (and there were good and decent human beings in Bobov as well) we had no one to protect us from this. It isn't so much that our parents didn’t know the extent, although I'm sure they didn't, it's that they didn't seek to know. I remember as a small child of 4 and 5 crying and begging not go to school, and these pleas fell on deaf ears and I was sent back to the torture chamber day after day. It was a different time and parents accepted a certain level of physical punishment of their children, and indeed, inflicted it themselves, though almost certainly without the immense enjoyment and intensity that these Melamdim did. But I have accepted the fact that when I and my classmates were too young to defend ourselves, our parents did not swoop in and protect us, because fundamentally they agreed with the kind, if not the level of degradation and pain we endured. You see it also in one of the other descriptions where mom keeps the boy home for a day after he was beaten for an hour – a day?!?!?! Which parent on this website today wouldn’t yank your child out of Yeshivah the minute you saw something like this?

So, does the kind of abuse that happened then happen now? I fervently hope that it doesn’t and that the Hanhalas are more enlightened and more watchful and protective of those who can't protect themselves. And I hope also that parents are watchful and look for the signs in their children that indicate a problem. But deep down, we know that there are still parents out there who have a fundamental belief that it’s OK for a Melamed to hit a child, and that, in my opinion, exposes the children in that family to abuse by a Melamed who through temperament or need seeks to hurt children. It is for these children whose parents are not overly concerned about what’s happening in Yeshivah, and say it’s OK if the Rebbe gives a Potch, these are the Yeshivahs where abuse can still happen. And I think we all have to take a measure of responsibility for these children and accept upon us the principle of Lo Saamod Al Dam. I am not intimately familiar with Yeshivahs today and only know anecdotally about certain Yeshivahs, but I would say that any Yeshivah that allows Melamdim to physically punish children remains as a place where abuse can occur and it’s up to those who are in the know, or should be in the know, including myself, if the information can be obtained, to ask a Rav what to do and take appropriate action. We should be a society who believes in Derukhayhu Darkhei Noam, not in creating an atmosphere where the sweetest memories of torah and Yiddishkeit are marred by the pain of abuse.

 

firstly, i applaud the victims for speaking up. When i was in yeshiva i was abused somewhat by one rebbe. I don't think it affected my life much. He was a wierdo, and he is dead now. There was a lot that was tolerated 20 years ago that is not tolerated today. Z-dog who wrote the article, was a good kid. I remember him. I think that one thing is clear. regardless of the degree of our religiousness or lack thereof, we as a semi community have to make sure that the sins of the past are not continued. We must talk about it. We must realize that there are teachers who are cruel. Abuse to a spouse or to a child are both wrong. Yet many times the parents don't know about it. I ask my children if their teacher ever hits them, touches them. Some times you have to be smart asking the question to get a true answer. kids are not always telling and some are protective of those who abuse them.
There was a trend in chassidish schools. and some litvish schools as well. Behavior by adults that was unnacceptable. It has gotten much better.Let us make sure that this isn't going to be the case of the future.
There is another side to some of this. Teachers hitting a kid for bad behavior, although nowadays is viewed as abuse, is not necessarily abuse.Is it preferable that school kids be void of all manners as is evident in 90 percent of schools limudei chol programs today. Let us not put everyone in the same group. Not every Rebbe who hit a kid 20 years ago is an abuser, although usually it shows of a personality defect.
Another point. We are two generations after the holocaust. Most of those in their 20's and 30's have grandparents who were survivors. Many of the rebbeim who taught us were sons of survivors. Survivors who were treated or survived cruelty or unimaginable pain during the holocaust, did not spend years in therapy. Their kids (our rebbes) suffered, and due to the fact that all they knew and respected was the abuse they recieved, that is how they taught. Behaviors are handed down. Teachers only know what they are taught, and if it was with abuse, that's generally how they will teach. Let us make sure not to allow abuse. Yet understand it, and deal with it in an intelligent way. Let me end with this prayer. May God bless and forgive all those who have sinned, and allow all those who have had good intentions to come back to him, especially the victims of abuse.

 

We must be able to understand this troubled guy and believe his past experiences...Unfortunatly there are many many boys that get abused in the Yeshivas and Camps by older Rebbes or Counselors without the consent of the child or teen...It is the same all over...There is a saying''If you can do it the legal way why do it the illegal way''I went thru many years of groping by guys in Yeshiva until I put a stop to it by pushing these guys away from me and only befriending those guys that I liked....

 

WOW. I am a Ba'al Teshuva. I have shed so many tears of shame and regret because I grew up Conservative, going to a secular high school, never learning anything like I am learning now. I never before even knew of the Oral Torah until 4 years ago. I was a 'hippie' and only when my younger brother became Shomer Shabbos did I begin to learn. Neither of my daughters ever even went to Hebrew School, much less a Jewish school or shul, until their Uncle very gently began to meet with us weekly to discuss Rabbi Tatz' book,"The Thinking Jewish Teenager's Guide To Life". I relived being a very mixed up teenager, but my daughters are becoming Aishes Chayil's. They are both learning Hebrew, Mussar and Torah. They went to Israel for 3 weeks this summer- on an Orthodox Birthright trip- all of this of their own choices, (which has brought me so much simcha...).
You guys cannot imagine how you sound to me, a 55 y/o divorced woman, who via the Aish Kollels (In Dallas and now Austin, Tx., whose Rabbis have not only been amazingly patient and kind to me, but to my daughters, and it is through their gentleness, my precious girls are becoming closer to Torah than I could ever imagine, going to every Shabbos, and meeting with the Rabbis and their lovely wives several times a week to learn! My dtrs are 22 and 19, attending Univ. Of Tx. here in Austin. People my age used to get beatings, verbal abuse and worse when I was growing up. I am so grateful to Hashem after reading all of this Loshen Hara, that it is late in life that I am becoming Frum. I guess there is a reason for everything. I feel heartbreak at many of these stories. That you men gossip here like Goyim is shameful. If you are still dealing with abuse issues, turn in anyone still living- to the proper authorities.How many accusing angels are you creating with all your comments against a fellow Jew? There is so much rage in your undertones. Please, just by being human, most of us have had to face heinous things happen in life, but I thought that everything that happens is a lesson to be learned. Are you so fearful of the 'outside world' that you cannot follow the law and report adult offenders? No one should read this and then fear to send their sons to yeshivas. You guys have no clue what it is like to be just now learning Torah. Where is your gratitude to at least your parents for keeping you in our fold? My father (May his memory be a blessing) beat the tar out of us- his daughters, and rarely laid a hand on my brothers, as I was growing up- because while HE was growing up, his father beat his sisters, and also would not speak to my father at all unless it was about Torah. Thanks (of course) to Hashem and my brother, my Dad returned to Torah learning late in his life and made reparations to my sister and I. To continue to carry such resentment and anger will eat up your lives. Quit blaming children; if they are 'bullies', where did they learn this behavior? Adults are responsible for all of our actions, even past actions. Turn these horrible old men in and move on- spread light in the world, as is your job as a Jew, please- it is up to us, right? And, btw, I worked as a psych nurse on a sexual trauma unit for many years. Abuse of any kind is NEVER to be dismissed lightly. If it's "his imagination", again, ask WHY? Check out the home situation, and if there is certainty re: a Rebbe, then do justice by this, for yourselves and to protect others. Not eating kosher food- well, you are punishing your Neshama because you were very wrongly punished or abused. As a Jew,keeping kosher is a mitzvot, as you know. SO don't attend the same shul- find somewhere where you can become the mentche you were meant to be. Don't give up on us, we need every Yid, right? I have missed out on so much, and am catching up as quickly as possible. Be grateful, seek help if you are still carrying such anger and resentment! I wish all of you only the best! Remember who you are!

 

Teshuva,

Get a grip!

You claim to have been a psychiatric nurse yet apparently the concept of catharsis eludes you. Please look it up (http://m-w.com/dictionary/catharsis) and get an idea of what's happening here.

You say that we should "turn in" the teachers, rebbes and school administrators that caused many Jewish students untold grief. There are a few problems with this suggestion such as:

1. Some of them are dead;

2. There is a thing called the Statute of Limitations;

3. In many cases while what they did was repugnant to Halacha and any concept of Yiddishkeit (such as public humiliation of students), it is not legally actionable.

I am a firm believer that we are all judged in the World To Come and am therefore confident that Rabbi Wolf and the other child abusers of Yeshiva Toras Emes are now or will in the future, burn in hell.

How dare you minimize someone else's trauma!

If you are a nurse, check your malpractice insurance.

 

I think Teshuva is one of those New-Agey, earthy types who was probably drawn to the psychiatric field in the first place because of her own admitted issues. This is also what probably made her become a BT-- I find that many BTs have pasts that lead them to search for something that they find in being observant.

Teshuva, really-- don't tell those of us who experienced this how to deal with it. You never inhabited this world, so don't presume to judge us. VTE (above) is correct-- in many cases, the offenders are dead or the statutes are up, or the offenses are not legally actionable. But that's not the point. If someone reading these accounts decides not to be observant, that's not my problem; that could be conceivably laid at the feet of those who gave us what to talk about. And 'creating accusing angels' is just so much psycho-spiritual claptrap. Really-- I believe you mean well, but I don't think you have a clue.

 

Amen!
Jewish guy
Well said!

 

"SO don't attend the same shul- find somewhere where you can become the mentche you were meant to be".

So are you not a "mentche" if you dont go to shull?

 

"Nice Jewish Guy," you need to either change your name or change the way you respond to people. I'm sure "Teshuva" touched a nerve and that's why you spoke so harshly, but please don't offend all of us BT's because one offended you. (You wrote, "I find that many BTs have pasts that lead them to search for something that they find in being observant.")

I am a very sincere BT who has no "past" having been brought up very sheltered, attending an exclusive private girls' school in Manhattan, which currently costs about $25,000 per year, per child. I was pampered and treated like a princess at school and at home, and became inspired to become observant after getting to know an Orthodox family and after reading numerous books about Orthodoxy. When I expressed an interest in going to study in Israel at Neve Yerushalayim, my parents immediately bought me a plane ticket and gladly paid my tuition, buying me a new "kosher" wardrobe and sending me with plenty of spending money to help me settle into my new life, which they fully respected and supported.

You, on the other hand, are FFB with quite a "past" from what you've written here. You must be quite emotionally scarred by this past. But that doesn't give you an excuse to disparage BT's or anyone else. If you want to disagree with Teshuva, go ahead - but do so respectfully and without pulling people like me into this by making blanket statements about BT's

By the way, my son is in his second cheder now and I'm not impressed at all with the supposedly heilige frum world. He had straight alephs, the issue wasn't academic - the issue was rebbes tying up kids, locking them in closets, kicking them, beating them, etc. MY son?? No way, I would never allow it. So far I have no way of knowing if my son was ever victimized this way because he always described it as other boys - and friends of mine who send their sons there admitted it happens to their sons - but if I ever find out one of them abused my son, let's just say I will not let the matter rest lightly. Of course I pulled him out right away as soon as I learned what was going on there.

Unlike most other mothers, I don't care if cheder number one had the "best" reputation and will assure entrance to a "top" yeshiva or "great" shidduch. I will not make my son a korban in order to attain things which are anyway in Hashem's hands. I will not allow anyone to harm my child, no matter how "choshuv" he supposedly is.

So, we're giving cheder 2 a try. The reputation is not close to that of cheder 1, but it was the only cheder which promised that they do not tolerate abuse at all, which is something no other cheder would say. Even so, I'm watching like a hawk. So far he seems very happy, but if any abuse issues arise, I will take him home and hire a private melamed. I will not allow my child to be abused. (My daughters are all happy B"H.)

I am deeply dedicated to living a Torah life and raising my children to do the same. Doing so sometimes means making decisions that aren't popular, such as giving up the brand name yeshiva for the sake of my child's well-being. But many BT's are well practiced at going against the grain and making decisions that don't necessarily please everyone in their community. That's an advantage I definitely have: I'm NOT afraid to stand up and do what's right, and not follow the crowd. Many people might not appreciate my actions - but my son does. Had your parents done the same for you, I think you would probably have appreciated it as well.

 

Anon 11/8 9:40,

I'm sorry if you took offense at my comments-- but I was careful not to generalize. Please review what I said: I said, " I find that many BTs have pasts that lead them to search for something that they find in being observant." And I stand by that statement. In other words, this has been my experience. Not all BTs, or even most, but many. And if you reread the statement, you will also see that "pasts" isn't necessarily disparaging either. But the fact is, I have met plenty of BTs who, through whatever life circumstances have been led to search for meaning and find it in Orthodox Judaism. I have also found many of them to be a little...off. If you're not one of them, great. No reason for you to get offended.

"You, on the other hand, are FFB with quite a "past" from what you've written here. You must be quite emotionally scarred by this past. But that doesn't give you an excuse to disparage BT's or anyone else. If you want to disagree with Teshuva, go ahead - but do so respectfully and without pulling people like me into this by making blanket statements about BT's"

I'm not at all emotionally scarred. I'm disappointed, yes. Dismayed, yes. But that doesn't mean I forgive anyone either. I didn't go marry a non-jew (or even a nonreligious person), or steal, or smoke pot, or in any other way 'act out'. But that doesn't mean I can't call out egregious behavior when I see it. And again, I'm not disparaging BTs. The fact is, I think many BTs are weird-- not because they're BTs, but because they're just weird people who happened to become BTs. And sorry, I just don't go for the whole accusing angels bit and flowery talk-- that's just me, and if that works for you, great-- but that's how I feel, and you shouldn't take it personally. As I did say, I'm sure Teshua is a good, well-meaning person, but I think her "turn the other cheek" approach is misguided and unrealistic. You were right to pull your son out of cheder. If God forbid your son had been victimized, would you have taken her approach?

 

To anon 11/5 @ 9:48pm

I can't believe you went to a chassidishe yeshiva like Bobov with the way you write your comment. It is so articulate with the proper english grammer really astounds me that you are still chassidish. Amazing!

 

Shalom, again. To anyone of you who left such harsh criticizm and passive-aggressive or outright agressiveness in your words toward me, well, let's say that I feel sorrow for your emotional pain. I am not "New-agey". Here is some updated info for you. Many studies have found that "catharsis"-type of therapy (and this is a blog, not therapy, right?) can re-traumatize those with PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome).
In some states now, the law has changed re: Statute of Limitations, and where it has not, one can file a civil law suit if a person is experiencing late effects of any type of child abuse, which, btw, includes verbal abuse, what someone called public humiliation. Another route is therapy, if you are still carrying so much anger or feel so wronged or damaged. My point was made out of kindness, not accusation or telling someone what to do. I was mixed up in my teen years because of being beaten with a belt, having my hair ripped out of my head, etc., for making an A-, so I feel my expertise about abuse is reality-based. Maybe it is why I was drawn to psychiatry- I did not have Torah at the time for answers. But, I did learn from my experiences there that there are many people in the world- many- that have unbearable scars- much more so than anything I have been through. I do not know your world, but I have been attending shul both at Chabad and at the Aish HaTorah Kollels and Strict Orthodox shuls, as well as classes in person and online.It has not been easy, but I now dress very modestly, keep kosher, learn every week, etc., and this has and does bring me such happiness, even during sorrowful times. Now I know where to turn. If you think that Aish HaTorah, Torah.org and Chabad are "New Age, then I suppose you think that of Reb Twersky? I do not think you read all of what I wrote. If you did, you would know I was expressing gratitude that I did not have to experience such abuse (nor did my brothers, Baruch Hashem) at school, and that I have grieved deeply that I was not raised in such an Orthodox way so as to pass our incredible heritage and duties on to my daughters properly, and was expressing gratitude that it is now, in the prsent, that I am learning, instead of when I was also being abused at home as a child. There ARE Orthodox and Chassidish Rabbis that are doing mind-blowing outreach for young men and women like my daughters, and they are kind enough to encourage even me, at age 55, to keep learning and to perform every mitzva approprate for women-when I learn of them! To disparage or insult or try to discourage me away from love of Torah and Hashem is not what I expected to find here, especially with so much intensity. I have been told by many I have learned with that it helps them so much to have a "BT" to learn with, including my learning partner in Monsey, because growing up as she did (as a 'real' Jew), by talking and learning with me, that my amazement and incredible awe has inspired her (others have told me this, too, which I find very puzzling) to daven with renewed kavanah; that they had not realized that sometimes their prayers had become rote. I am sorry if my comments offended or hurt or insulted anyone. My father and I really made peace before we lost him a little over a year ago, via learning Torah. Forgiveness is a very powerful thing to do, and it is not easy, at least it was not for me, but it has freed me from a grip I did not even realize was there.
For 5 years, since I began to realize that there was a spiritual hole in my life, I have been learning. The same brother I spoke of is now President of a new Orthodox Synagogue that began with 4 families and now, inside of 7 years, has 180, and is continuing to grow. The Chassidim AND the other Orthodox Rabbunim ALL WORK TOGETHER here in TX to reach out to other Jews. This is how I have learned so far. I am naive, obviously, of the inner world of Chasiddism because I did not grow up that way. Reading of all the horrors many of you seemed to have been through, I was relieved of the sorrow that I did not grow up that way! I am learning so much and had felt that I have been remiss as a Jew, no matter how hard I work, or how many tear I shed or how many times I daven Viduy- until I read of the horrors yoou speak of here.
I was suggesting, from my very short 5 years of learning Chavitz Chaim as part of my daily learning, (are you saying his teachings are "New Age", along with Ba'al Shem Tov?) that maybe there is another way, other than ripping apart those who harmed us, other than smearing their names for millions of outsiders (apparently I am as much of one as Bin Laden in your eyes?) to read... that my daughters and many other fellow Yids' adult children are learning and taking on more and more mitzvot, but still have secular lives and are still vulnerable. If they read this, for instance, they might shy away, turn their backs on what they have learned- because they are fragile in some ways, still. I believe you (and all Jews with Torah knowledge) are responsible for your words and the effect they may have on others- especially those you do not know of. I could have kept silent, as I usually do, but feel this is a duty- an opportunity to act on what I have been given. I have learned that our words are very powerful and that by spreading such venom as is here, all Jews are harmed. I have learned I should speak out, not in anger, but as a reminder- when a fellow beloved Jew is speaking in such a way. Am I wrong to do so? If other Yids had not taught me, sometimes even in a harsh manner, I would still be- well- not living the way I am now.
In her secular high school, my younger daughter started a trend of no gossip, no speaking harmfully of teachers or fellow students. She did this by politely excusing herself from those types of conversations- finally the other kids asked her why- and she told them of how powerful words are, and that most of the time we are hurting ourselves, much less others, by speaking harmfully of others. This is new age? Then Avraham Avinu must be "New age"? I never told her to do any of this and only heard about it around a year later- from one of her Goyim friends, no less. But more importantly, she went with me to JUST ONE CLASS in one of my 32 week classes, and it had that strong of an impact on her. I guess the Rabbis that moved here from Yerushalayim and New York are "New Age"? The ones that daven at kollels all day, then make themselves constantly available to those of us returning, longing to learn. I was told by a very prominent Rebbe visiting here from Israel, that Ba'al Teshuvas should be treated with the utmost love and respect, because it is so much more difficult to learn a lifetime worth of the knowledge that Frum Jews take for granted. I guess Chassidim do not feel this way?That has not been my experience until this blog. Okay,this help me decide where to send my charity to- I had been dividing it between Shabbat food for Israeli soldiers, Victims of terror in Israel, Aish and Chabad. Now, I will narrow it to the first three. I do not want to give to those who harm Jewish children, or those who speak against other Jews. Thank you for making this crystal clear for me, and I still wish you all a Refuah Sh'lemah and only the best. I pray that all of our people become as one nation. Even if I am a hated Ba'al Teshuva and naive, I am still a fellow Jew, just like you. Remember yourselves. No matter who has done you wrong/harmed you, remember that for a holocaust victim to speak a word about what they experienced , was to diminish the immensity of the experience; so many, many of them act outwardly instead of speaking. It is a fact, not an excuse. That they are/were alive to even take out their rage on us-knowingly or unknowingly- is a drop in the bucket compared to what happened to them. We who say we shall never forget, are forgetting this. This is what I have learned. No person may know the extent of another's pain. It is impossible. Only Hashem can know the truth of who/what harmed you and how and even why- and more importantly- what you did to make yourself rise above it- and bring the light of Torah, our great privelege and duty- into our everyday thoughts, words and actions. Too new agey? I learned it from the same Torah given to Moshe Rabbeinu. I am just newer at it, not new agey. I am grateful for it, and for you, no matter what you say. Thank You, Hashem for not making me a goyim. Omayn. A little thoughtfulness goes a long way. I thought about whether to respond to the taunts or be silent, like the dust- for several days. It came to me that if what I say is wrong, then I will learn something, and if my words stir up such intense emotional oouotburst(s), then there is someone that needs to read them, for whatever reason. It was something horrendous that made me return (Well, turn to) Torah learning. It is sincerely not my intention to be hurtful, but, only to pass back down the table what was given for me to share. I am not looking down at anyone (How could I?),and I am unafraid to look someone in the eyes and speak from my heart when I think that ultimately, it may help. I do have one question...Why are so many of you "anonymous"? What are you afraid of? Help me understand.

 

Teshuva,

Your recent post was a bit long and rambling, and difficult to follow, but I think I got the jist. I'll keep my response brief:

Firstly, I don't know where you got the idea the some people here "hate" you- I don't think anyone here hates you. We don't even know you. No one bears you any ill will, and to say that would only suggest that you have a persecution complex.

Apparently, you went through your share of pain and horrible abuse, and that is regrettable. You should not have had to be treated that way. Clearly, you have found your own path to healing, in your own way, through study and observance. That is commendable.

In your original post, though, you came across as somewhat judgmental and critical of others for accounting their stories, and suggested that we were unhealthy for carrying around anger and needed to forgive and seek legal recourses instead of telling our stories.

For the record, I am not angry, nor carrying around anger. There was nothing angry in the way I recounted my experiences. I am (I think), a pretty emotionally healthy person and well adjusted (at least as most people). I am glad for you that you have found your path to healing and forgiveness the way you have. But please don't presume to suggest that we need to follow the same path. I don't believe that everything can be or needs to be forgiven, and even if they do, that doesn't mean forgotten. Suggesting that we file civil suits is fine, and I'm sure there are those that have or will, but suggesting that that be done instead of telling our experiences is pithy. You should know, as a psychiatric professional, that talking about one's experiences is part of the healing process.

In short, don't project your experiences and opinions on others. What worked for you is not necessarily good for others.

 

Well said, Guy.
Round Three

 

NJG,

Thank you!

Teshuva,

Please, get a grip!

NJG was correct in that you are rambling. I'm trying very hard to make sense out of your first paragraph and it's proving extremely difficult.

First, who said anyone had PTSD? People here are simply talking about what problems they had because talking provides relief and also sets the record straight about certain rabbis and yeshivas.

Second, even assuming someone here (certainly not me) had PTSD, I find your comment:

"Many studies have found that "catharsis"-type of therapy (and this is a blog, not therapy, right?) can re-traumatize those with PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome)"

to be utter and complete nonsense aside from having nothing to do with this discussion.

Let's clear up a couple of things.

"Talk therapy" is still the basic form of psychotherapy.

Of course, assuming you are an RN ("psych nurse") you then know that you are not licensed to perform this therapy. The only ones who can are psychiatrists, psychologists and licensed certified social workers.

If you worked in the psych ward of a hospital, your connection with psychotherapy was that you dispensed psychotropic medication prescribed by doctors.

So, to make it easier on you, please do not inflate your resume.

I wonder if from your Texas viewpoint you think we are a bunch of ignorant chareidim here. You would be wrong. I, for example, am a Modern Orthodox attorney.

I tried to explain to you why we were offended by your use in your first post of declarations such as:

"That you men gossip here like Goyim is shameful."

As I see you haven't yet understood, I can only say that I would wish for the opportunity to take a deposition of you.

One of the questions we would explore, you raised yourself:

"I do have one question...Why are so many of you "anonymous"?"

You said you were a "psych nurse" and you have no idea?

I'll tell you what, either you never were or you've forgotten so much that perhaps you need to watch a few episodes of "Law and Order: Special Victims Unit" http://www.nbc.com/Law_&_Order:_Special_Victims_Unit/ and maybe you can get some ideas. (I know, I know, you don't have a TV. Buy the DVD set.)

But let's reduce this to the "case summary" as they do in both medical and law journals:

1. The topic of this blog entry is abuse in yeshivas.

2. Various people chose to share information on bad experiences they had with different yeshivas and rabbis.

3. You came in and dispensed advice that was wholly inappropriate because a) you are not qualified; and b) you do not have the personal experience and background to know what went on in these yeshivas.

So please. Live a good Jewish life as you said you want to do. Consider it truly a GEMILAS CHESED to not post here again.

 

tell us what you really think, dont hold back. LOL

 

NJG (and anyone else here, of course)
My post was the most revealing of anything I have read here, because I do not fear anyone's response, and expected your kind of response only from people who actually need help. I do not mean that as a refute or insult. You (like most lay-people) clearly have no idea what RN's do at a psych hospital. This depends on one's experience and education level. Not only was I a sole facilitator for groups on the 2 units I was Director Of Nursing for, I worked with the most sought after Physician (at that time) in the world, an expert on abuse- both the kind that leads to milder Dissociative Disorders, all the way to the most difficult to treat (which used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder, until the DSM IV came out). Example: Every Sunday for 2 years, I facilitated groups of sexual trauma victims- both male and female, and (on my other unit) a similar group that I facilitated for MPD and PTSD patients, and (all with pt. permission, of course), filmed these groups. These films were ultimately presented at international conferences, and helped that (same) physician that wrote the criteria for the DSM IV in regards to diagnosis and treatment of dissociative disorders. FYI, ALL children that have been abused or even abandoned in any way, even very "mild" abuse, if there is such a thing,(Verbal abuse is now sometimes considered worse than physical, depending on the case-and is often called 'Spiritual Abuse' in case presentations) all end up having some level of PTSD-even if S&S (signs & symptoms) do not show up until much later in life, if at all; many either find a way to work through (Torah, anyone?) or have it buried so deeply that they are not self-aware; instead they ACT OUT.
Maybe you should stick to your own field of expertise, so that you do not embarrass yourself again. I hope you have a meaningful job, like I did, that extends beyond puffing yourself up as a "Modern Orthodox Attorney".... Whatever sentiment you were trying to relay by making certain we all know what an ultra-important, extremely knowledgeable person you are, did not wax true or helpful for me. So now, I merely cannot take your comments seriously, sorry, at least for now. "Talk therapy" is okay, but pretty outdated when it comes to trauma recovery therapy. The idea is to exist in and deal with the here and now, not re-traumatize the person repeatedly from having to re-live heinous memories. Place the blame properly and figure out how to get through being the 'now' you, finding an exit the self-loathing, guilt and shame strategy that comes - always- from abuse of any kind! I do not need to watch gratuitous violence on television, not with my experience and , thankfully, important contributions. I have seen the real thing, and up close- things no human should endure or maybe even have to know of, and so terrible, that I will never speak of them unless it is to be of service to a fellow medical professional.
You seem to not recognize silly sarcasm, although you freely dish sarcasm out (re: "being hated", etc.). Maybe it is YOU who should not post here, but I am not really suggesting this, just letting you know how it sounds- I have every right and reason to remind fellow Jews of Lashon Harah, like other Anonymous posters have done here. You directly publicly insulted me twice now,(the abused often end up acting like their abusers?) not so nice, nor containing any inkling of chesed or respect, thus not so Jew-ish. Saddened,I must assume that the things I wrote must relate to you personally since you seem to be quite over-reactive; maybe (I hope not)-a bit delusional and certainly grandiose in writing as if you speak for everyone here! Unless all these posts were written by you, FYI, I was not directing my comments to just one person, but all, like everyone else does here. In your personal pain- you exhibit a transparent & groping need to seek attention (which, in me, evokes a reason to help you become more conscious of your effect on me and maybe others- to help you get past whatever is driving your intense reactions- that can only come from some kind of pain). I have noted that you actually goad people into writing you personally! LOL, so here I am, taking the bait, meeting your need to be the center of attention, and I sincerely hope you will laugh at both of us, and relax a little!! I took the time to write a self-revealing, heartfelt post, hoping to help or at least remind others- with my 30 years of experience in helping people to heal coupled with 5 years of falling in love with my own people and our Torah, which is all of us, including "Nice Jewish Guy", even with your put-downs, anger, and self-righteous behavior. Because my first post was taken in a way I did not mean to put out, I took the time to explain, and instead of appreciating my effort, you acted rudely, asking me to never post here again. How do you know that someone else, even one person, might find help in what I took the time to say? PLEASE, recall that you are talking to fellow Jews, which includes me- who- whether successful or not, am pure and well-meaning in my intentions and attempts.
If you are Nice and Jewish, maybe you could be an example of good intentions, tolerance, compassion and chesed toward others- especially those of us expending giant efforts, learning to think, speak and act like our Patriarchs and Matriarchs, even if I am not there yet!
I offered expert, not amateur advice, in hopes of reaching people that have experienced "groping" (serious and potentially disturbing sexual abuse), forcing a child (or adult for that matter) to hold in their natural bodily functions (physical, sexual AND emotional abuse/trauma), whacking in the head/face, remaining sick w/o parental/ medical attention...and etc. All sickening! My point was- that it's about THAT PERSON , THE CHILD ABUSER, not Judaism! Of course if my children were still at that age, and I knew enough to send them for a Jewish education, I would watch like a hawk,(like I did , anyway) or better yet, like a Jewish Mother! I was never dismissing the Offender, but promoting that the victim (we say "Survivor" in my field) seek help, in whatever form that needs to be for each individual. Like someone else here said, "there are skunks in every environment". Adults who abuse children- to me, they are both the saddest of humans and the most dangerous at the same time. If you were one of the innocent abused (all abused children- and even teenagers- are), then your anger and resentment is reality-based, and not to be dismissed lightly, ever, for any reason. That is why I said what I did in my posts. It's tough to get tough on yourself- in a good and right way- to know that your sum total is not about the bad that has happened, but what you choose to do about it. I should and do know- from both personal and professional experiences. Baruch Hashem, I am finally at peace with my past, and it took a long time. That is why I will not be advised by NJG. I know better, and I know who and what I am and am becoming because it was and is hard work on self.
Here, my friend, is a mirror. May you look into it and see us all there, wishing only that you are not isolated, and seeing we are all fallible, including you. Deep breaths, man!
Good Shabbos and Best Wishes to all!

 

OOPs, sorry NJG, it was 'victim of toras emes' who was so untoward toward me. I know what blog I am reading, thanks. I started reading it because I did not get to grow up frum, and as you know, everything happens for a reason....I do not know from Yeshivas, but want to understand. You, Sir, could drive me away not only from this blog, but from Yiddishkeit. I will be sure to copy and pass all of this along to the Rebbe here. Maybe He will help me understand why you act so mean toward a fellow Jew, and a woman-treating me with such disrespect. Thanks for passing on your outright meanness. Wow.

 

T.,

(By the way, calling yourself “Teshuva” is somewhat inapt. I think you should switch to “Mechila.”)

You’re becoming unglued. It seems that not only can’t you keep the writers on this blog straight (myself v. “Nice Jewish Guy”) you also can’t get your story straight.

Time for a reality check.

I blasted you for barging into this discussion with pronouncements like, “That you men gossip here like Goyim is shameful.”

It isn’t.

I applaud Chaptzem for running this story.

People should not be silent any longer. Silence allowed various rebeim to abuse students in yeshivas. Silence allowed people like Brauner to commit their crimes.

I further praise the Daily News for publishing in today’s paper this article, http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2007/11/17/2007-11-17_exbrooklyn_rabbi_likely_to_be_dragged_ba-2.html and the New York Post for its version, http://www.nypost.com/seven/11172007/news/regionalnews/fugitive_pervert_rabbi_held_274690.htm.

If our community does not take care of its own problems the government will do it for us. Those who shield sex offenders commit the worst sort of Chilul Hashem.

How nice to use the Internet to “parachute” into Borough Park from Texas and tell people to keep quiet. How dare you!

(Do you even know what Toras Emes is?)

On a personal note, stop with the resume inflation and the delusions of grandeur. You have no qualifications whatsoever to dispense psychological advice, not that anyone asked you for it. Being a “facilitator” (!) is not the same as being a psychiatrist of psychologist. But you knew that already.

Please, feel free to discuss this with a rav, as many of us have already done.

Telling people not to talk about child abuse is, in my mind, the moral equivalent of telling them not to talk about armed robbery.

 

I am a first time reader of this blog. I find it a disgrace and a great chillul Hashem to write this stuff publicly. Yes I recognize some of the rabbeim mentioned since I also made my rounds of yeshivas, I went to about eight yeshivas in my days. I had Rabbi Kugelman in Beer Shmuel, I have only good memories of him. Rabbi Wolf in Toras Emes, I even went to him many times after he retired from chinuch and went back to being a chiropractor. I have good memeories of him as a Principle of the Yeshiva and as a very helpful chiropractor. I had Rabbi Silverman in Toras Emes and found him to be a wonderful and caring rebbi. I never had Rabbi Lieberman as a rebbi but I did learn a lot from him as a friend and I davened with him for many years, I still miss him, he was a great person.
PLEASE before you defame people think of what you are doing to them and their families. I do admit that some of the rabbeim were a little tougher that the rabbiem today. But the difference is that they cared about the kids. That is one of the reasons that I am what I am today. I BH have a great family all of them in yeshivas and succeeding.

 

to anon 11/17 @ 9:22pm

I don't know what planet you came from but the same kugelman i had in beer shmuel was a sadist who once broke the arm of a five year old child. I'm sure if that happened to you, you would'nt be saying that these rebbes were "just a little tougher".

As for Teshuva, I have to concur with VTE and say that he is correct in that you are not qualified to dispense psychological advice since as you state you were/are only a "facilitator". However, if your RN is as a Nurse Practitioner, then your arguments and advice would have more of a leg to stand on. In any event, recalling past events in psychotherapy is somtimes necessary to determine what course of action to take in the "here and now". That's been classic psychoanalysis since Freudian times. I'm sure you have heard of getting things off your chest by discussing unresolved greif or conflicts to a supporting ear or in this case a blog. This blog is just another version of such a support mechanism and nothing more.

'

 

VTE,

Well said.

Teshuva, I'm sorry, but VTE is right. You're rambling again, and regardless of your having worked with "the most sought after physician" and whatever experience you've had, you A) are not qualified to dispense advice and counsel, and B) you have no full context in which to dispense said advise or counsel.

Talk therapy is not, as you claim, "outdated"- it is a mainstay of Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy (CBT). If Talk Therapy" were "outdated", then we would have no need for qualified Social Workers, PsyD.s or PhD. psychologists, and all we would need is medication. And sorry, but Torah is not a solution to trauma like this. It can be a great spiritual comfort, but it doesn't address the psychological damage or emotional pain. I don't know where you get the ideal that it does.

People have come here to add their personal experiences on this matter. They have a right to do so. If you don't like, it, sorry, but that's really too bad. You deal with things your way, but don't judge people for dealing with things in theirs.

Anon 11/17 @9:22pm,

Well, goody for you that you have had such positive experiences with your rebbeim. This proves what exactly? Just because nobody abused you doesn't mean they didn't abuse others. If every kid had been abused, there'd be nothing to talk about. So great that you had such positive experience, and you had a rebbe that became a doctor (what does that have to do with the price of tea in china?). I, and others, still experienced what we did.

 

anybody hear about a "rabbi" rosenhan that teaches english in mesoras avos in lakewood? he is famous for beating the crap out of kids and last week broke a kids arm in 2places!! the yeshiva didnt fire him yet because they are looking for a replacement so the animal is free to abuse more kids.

and yes all the rabbis in town know about it but there is no profit in standing up to the rich baale batim on behalf of a middle class talmid, so they tell the parents we know its terrible....bla bla bla

 

YES,i was slapped,in Viener yeshiva in the 60's. one day at recess (i was 13 or 14 years old),the rebbi asked me if i read comics books,I said no,and he smacked me both with the inside of his plam,and on the return swing,with the backside of his hand. It seems one boy,in the class made up stories about me,reading comics,and the rabbe,without looking into the allegations,or listening to my protests,believed the boy,and beat the S---T out of me.and he did this with a gusto.I am not accepting that lame excuse about being holocaust survivors. MY mother and most of my relatives,were in Aushwitz,and none of them acted this way. lets stop the bull---t. some of these rebbes were animals themselves,and their kids,are probably the same as them. my parents had to tell this particular rebbi,(Yi. D.) for those of you who knew him,to take it easy on me,and not to kill me.AND I was NEVER a troublemaker,or chutzpadik,to any of my rebbis.If a boy,is a nuisance,in class or a bully,than i feel the rabbi(like the gemorrah says)has a right to hit NOT KILL him,WITH the parent's PERMISSION.And besides a real ehrliche,rebbi,one with yiras shomayim,probably never has to resort to violence,his words alone sting more than any stick or hand.As far as Temima,what can one say? in my mind the SNOBBIEST yeshiva around. And you would be surprised,some FLATBUSH people(who are a legend in their own mind)need this type of school. It fits in perfectly,with their personalities,and their lifestyles.The REGENCY B U N G A L O W crowd are very much aware of this.more power to ya.

 

A funny thing happened. I hung out with an old friend at a baseball game recently and as luck would turn out we both went to Beer Shmuel. We are a few years apart but we immediately understood each other when old familiar names like Rabbi Kugelman and Rabbi Schnitzler came up.

I've kept this bottled up but its amazing how with vivd clarity everything came out.

I goggled Kugelmans name and stumble onto this blog. Can someone explain to me how there's a statute of limitations for Child Violence?

The retelling of what happened is indeed cathartic as you called it but I think justcice needs to be served.

Beer Shmuel is such a stark difference form how other kids experienced their formative years that I really don’t think people like my wife would understand it. It proves that any unchecked absolute power will go corrupt. Parents not only condoned it but would give twice as hard to the kid for making the rabbi hit them. Maybe they thought these were light patches as opposed to “frasks”. Didn’t they wet the kids hands so that the sting of the stick would be extra painful?!

I don’t think this would be tolerated by today’s standards even in a Chassidic school. Those guys are clowns in the real world and so they would get off hitting the weak. But it was more than that Mayer. They wanted to break the kids down and destroy their dignity. It wasn’t about punishment it was about making the kid cry.

Very Machiavellian don’t you think?