<$BlogRSDURL$>

Tuesday, December 25, 2007

Zei veisen alles

According to a source, FBI agents and special linguists working on the Spinka case had done a pretty good job interpreting what had been spoken in Yiddish by the various parties involved. Even vague Yiddishe slang words that had been used to communicate certain items or activities were all figured out and translated by agents.

Comments:
It was a Heimishe translator!

 

In chaider flaget mien rebbe zogen ich veis alas ober ven men zogt mich veis ich noch besser!!!!
WHAT A SHAME TO SET UP A FELLOW JEW LIKE THIS

 

The money train has left the
station. These crooks will
have years to study while in
prison.

 

"Even vague Yiddishe slang words"
give an example of a word (so I should know what not to say anymore - just kidding)

 

This is very true. The FBI has a crack team of Yinglish traslators. Gevald!!! vatch vat de zugt.

 

B.S. The only recordings they have is when the moiser wired himself. And those conversations are all in english anyways.

Secondly, they have NOTHING on the Rebbe himself. They arrested him as a publicity stunt because he is the figurehead of the moised and it'll put Orthodox Jews in a bad limelight.

As far as the records they seized, it is practically worthless as it has nothing to do with the alleged activities. All those records, also in Yiddish, were off-site where the FBI never came to, and have since been used to warm that homes fireplace.

In short, they have no case and are on a fruitless fishing expedition.

 

this should be no surprise to anyone.

 

To see the ganze megilla, check out this link:

www.4shared.com/dir/5073424/dce2789d/sharing.html

 

I think this is getting uglier as each day comes.
Who were these agents that know yiddish?

But the Feds don't hire Iranian or Iraqi Jews to help them find the real terrorists, but they can hire ---s to translate the yiddish!

 

Oy vay!

 

What do the New York Kasirers have to say about all of this? Are they involved at all?

 

whu are you ripping the informant? The bootom line is that if they did the crime they should do the time.

DON'T STEAL AND DON'T GO TO JAIL

 

They have nothing on the Rebbe or his Gabbai I am sure of that. I can't imagine the Rebbe coming up with this scam or having any direct knowledge.. Some of the people in his org.. taht's a differant story.

 

Well dont you think we should rip the informant robert kassirer since he was not only involved in this scam the reason he wore the wire was because of a 130 million dollar bond fraud he was involved in, so he was trying to save his own skin after all he does is lie cheat and steal.

 

There isn't a soul alive that's not commiting white collar crime to some degree. You think even past Presidents are paying their fair share of taxes? BULL! If RK would be able to turn in any of the past Pres. he would do that too!

What is the New York Kassirer Mishpacha doing to help the mess that their relatives made?

 

I generally [tend to] agree with bob 4:43PM but am not as optimistic,
albeit hopeful. We have to do a lot of TEFILLAH.

Phillip 4:28pm (Rhetorical Question) ARE YOU SOOO SQUEEEAKY KLEEEEAN???!!! (chassidic zhlob doesn't know how to spell English, anyway! right!) BTW the last oufgeklerte [prejudiced] prsn. admitted [reluctantly] that meknows spelling [a teeny bit] better than THEM! There's a classical story (maybe to you "classic" only means (that anti-semite) Shakespeare's) "Pound of Flesh" in "The Merchant of Venice" )about Rabbi Akivah, who was arrested (by the Roman Government) for learning Torah, in a similar setup. Anyway, the RAT (or those that were gleeful about the arrest) ended up in the same prison (cell?) as Rabbi Akivah. (for the rest of the story, read the Original Sources!!!

 

Anon. 10:19AM Remember that Banner Headline [of yours]! Sometimes, people have to eat their own words!

 

You guys obviously did not read the linked document. Read it and you all will wake up and smell the coffee.

 

Remember that the document is nothing more than the affidavit of a police officer. It is a series of allegations. It isn't evidence. The evidence will be tested in court, where it will be scrutinized for veracity (unless the Rebbe makes a plea, or something). But don't assume that just because a cop swears something is true, that it has even a shred of truth. (We may find, c''v, that it is true... but time will tell. In the meantime, we should be dan l'kaf zechus).

 

Attention Advocat:

(By the way, what actual attorney does not know how to spell "advocate?")

Yes, indeed, the affidavit, sworn to under penalty of perjury, is made by a law enforcement agent. What motivation this agent has to lie no one has ever said.

But you left out a little detail, namely the recordings, both audio and video, mentioned numerous times in the affidavit.

Those recordings are the evidence and based on their description, they are going to be tough to rebut.

 

PURIMSHPEIL 2007!

 

I read it, but I didn't smell any coffee. How did you smell coffee by reading it?

 

To Esquire,

Advocate is the English word. The Yiddish word is not pronounced the same way, and so I left off the 'e' so that it would be clear that I intended the Yiddish word advocat (last syllable rhymes with cot). So I turn the question back on you: what kind of a Yid doesn't know Yiddish?

To answer your comments, I was not saying that the Rebbe is not guilty. I was saying that we do not know if the Rebbe is guilty based only on the affadavit. Policemen lie all the time. Sometimes they do it to defend their arrests after the fact, sometimes they do it to justify an arrest they're just itching to make. Obviously policemen are also known to tell the truth from time to time. Time will tell. But the fact that "recordings" were referred to in the affadavit does not mean that said recordings exist or that said recordings demonstrate what the policemen say they demonstrate. Furthermore, the part of the recording that apparently implicates the Spinka Rebbe is very sparse in detail. In order for those comments to actually make the Spinka Rebbe guilty, it would have to be demonstrated that the Spinka Rebbe understood the entire context of the statements he was making. Assuming that the affadavit is accurate, all we know is that the Spinka Rebbe was aware that a transacation was taking place. We do not know whether he realized he was engaging in money laundering. Obviously if the Rebbe was aware of what he was doing, the prosecution may well be able to demonstrate that beyond a reasonable doubt. But the bottom line is this: none of us have seen a shred of evidence, all we have seen is the police officer's promise that there will be evidence. And it certainly is not clear to me that the evidence that the police officer believes he can produce at trial will implicate the Rebbe beyond a reasonable doubt.

Finally, nebuch that this has to happen that we have to discuss such a thing, and it is pathetic that there are people who claim to be frumme yidden on this forum who seem to be giggling with glee at the idea of the Spinka Rebbe going to jail, chas veshalom. We should know only of Moshiach.

 

Advocat,

I am "the kind of Yid" who is not fluent in Yiddish (having gone to a yeshiva that emphasized Ivrit). I presume that being the son of a Bas Yisrael, I am as much a Jew as you even though I don't ask rhetorical questions bordering on Rechilus and/or Lashon Hora.

If you want to write in Yiddish, then using Hebrew script would make it clear you are writing in that language.

To clear things up, your statement "But don't assume that just because a cop swears something is true, that it has even a shred of truth" is absolute naarishkeit. (How's that for Yiddish, oh wise one?)

When an FBI agent swears that audio recordings contain certain words, if those words are not on the tapes, he is committing perjury, a federal offense.

In my experience as a lawyer, this is very unlikely.

As to what context the statements were made, that will all be revealed long before the trial.

You see, my dear prustack, there is something called Brady material. For purposes of this discussion, what you need to know is that the government will have to give the defense copies of the tapes long before the trial. That will provide adequate opportunity to determine exactly who said what to whom and in what context.

By the way, it seems through many of these posts that the following is a recurring theme:

1. A number of Jews in contravention of the Halachic provision that "Dinei d'malchusa k'dina," may have violated federal law.

2. At least one Jew who definitely violated federal law decided to make a deal with the government and obtain evidence against other Jews.

3. Many people on this blog are upset with the Jew who acted as the Confidential Witness.

Is there anyone on this blog willing to say that those who violate the laws of the United States against money laundering, filing false tax returns, tax evasion, conspiracy and numerous other felonies are doing something that violates the Torah?

How about you, Advocat? Is it okay under Halacha for someone to commit the above felonies?

Yes or no, please.

 

I feel sorry for those with the last name Kasirer. All relatives will be cowering in shame after this, for a long time to come. Very sad.

 

To Esquire,

I apologize for my comments about not knowing Yiddish. They were over the line. As for Hebrew characters: I don't know how to type in Hebrew, but your suggestion is otherwise a good one. I don't see how my comments were rechilus or loshon haroh (an odd accusation, given that you're the one who has already publicly condemned a Torah giant for violating the law based upon the testimony of a moser). But we can agree to disagree on that point.

I want to start by saying that the cast of characters are indeed guilty of the allegations that have been made against them, then it seems clear to me that they have violated the Torah as well. Tax fraud is an aveirah on multiple levels as far as I am concerned, and the lax attitude that some of our Heimisher Brider have (that its "just the goyishe government") is disheartening to say the least.

But, of course, the parties are not guilty of violating Torah (at least with respect to the allegations made in the affidavit) if the allegations are false. You and I may have different experiences with respect to police officer's (or FBI agent's) testimony. In my experience, you can't believe half of what you hear (whether in a police report, under oath in deposition, on the stand in the middle of a trial, or elsewhere), and Police are more than willing to lie when it comes to tarnishing the accused (even States' Attorneys know that, though they tend not to talk about it... you don't have to be a bleeding heart liberal to admit it). Police officers are rarely indicted on perjury charges, especially when ther lies are exaggerated versionis of the truth. The claims that the officer here makes about the Rebbe, for example, are not half as damning as they looks, and it would only take changing the emphasis on a handful of words to make his "translation" seem truly quite innocent, rather than an indictable offense.

My claim that the truth will emerge at trial was, of course, idiomatic. Most indictments don't result in a trial; and most of the facts are on the table well before opening statements or jury selection. I know that, and I know you know that. You must also know that Brady material is not necessarily made part of the public record. Rather, it is released to the Rebbe and to his attorney. We will probably never be privy to actual sound recordings of the tapes, unless someone leaks them. So I stand by my characterizations: the FBI has accomplished an incredible smear against a Rebbe, and in the court of public opinion, it is unlikely that the Rebbe will ever get a fair trial... especially with folks like you willing to skewer him before any evidence is ever presented.

The reason that we are upset about the Jew who acted as a witness against the Rebbe is that he violated halacha by turning a Jew in to the goyish authorities. That is mesirah, and is considered a terrible sin, and a betrayal (guilty or not though the accused and betrayed Jew might be).

I am angry about the lack of respect (in some circles, though not necessarily in Spinka until the government can prove otherwise) for dina d'malchisa dina. Are you angry about the mesirah that undoubtedly occurred here? The brazen violation of halacha?

As an attorney, do you not believe that the Rebbe is entitled to the presumption of innocence, that can only be rebutted through evidence that establishes his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt?

 

The Maaseh is azoi, yiddishe kinder, The Rebbe and his chevra have already had their day in court - the Heavenly court on Yomim Naroim - the one we all recognise - and now they have had their Psak (or qvittel) - all 40 pages of it, and it ain't a good one. Teshuvah doesn't come easy for Chillul Hashem - just look at what the Rambam says about it in Hilchos Teshuvah. I knew a frumm man, a shul gabba/parnes, pillar of the Kehilla, who under stress made a 'mistake' which forced his business to go mechula and he landed up in jail. Folks said what a Chillul Hashem he had made. Some even wouldn't say good shabbos to him. What busha he and his family suffered ! I thought he had 'paid' enough for his 'Aveira'. Heaven thought otherwise. He spent the last ten years of his life paralysed from a car crash ! I tell you, the Ribbono Shel Olom isn't going to let the Spinkas off the hook for this, innocent or not in the American court. Vehu Rachum Yechaper Ovoun Velo Yashchis......

 

FYI. The "New York Kassirers" are not related to Robert Kasirer, whose name is spelled with one "s". It should be made clear that there is no connection whatsoever.

 

Where did the Rebbe come with with this "BOZO" Kasirer Chussid anyhow? Who introduced them?

 

Advocat,

Your last paragraph is to me the most important so I’ll take it first.

In the United States of America EVERY criminal defendant is entitled under the Fifth, Sixth and Fourteenth Amendments to certain rights. Among them are:

The right to remain silent;

The right to an attorney (free if he cannot afford one);

The right to be confronted with the witnesses against him;

The right to trial by jury;

The right to be presumed innocent; and

The right to have each and every element of each and every charge against him proven beyond a reasonable doubt using legally admissible and constitutionally obtained evidence.

This is true regardless of who you are, so of course, the rebbe has these rights as does the person known as CW-1.

Your statement that “Most indictments don’t result in a trial” is true only because most result in a plea. Rarely are indictments dismissed.

Regarding the questions of Halacha, unlike the “gedolim” who frequent this blog and would like to re-write the Gemara to make us believe that mesirah is “ye’haraig v’al “ya’avor,” I’m going to do something different. I’m going to give CW-1 the same presumption of innocence under Halacha.

Here’s my question for you: do you know what the government said to this man in order to get him to cooperate? If, assuming arguendo, his family was threatened, does that not make his sin b’shogayg?

What is crystal clear here is that all of this is a colossal Chilul HaShem. The last time I checked Chilul HaShem was an aveirah for which you could not be forgiven with a karban, no?

The tax year is ending today and the Form 1040 is due by April 15. A certain number of tax returns are always “kicked out” for manual examination. How would you like to be a taxpayer whose return is selected and then have the IRS auditor see that it comes from ZIP Code 11219?

If the individual defendants are all found not guilty, great. Until such time, the over-emphasis on this blog of mesirah over Chilul HaShem is unseemly, to say the least.

 

To all the experts posting such absolute bull as halacha:
We understand that for you, lawyers especially, felonies and mdm's trump halacha all the time, but for a frum Jew the opposite is true. By 'frum' I mean the Shulchan Aruch (c'm 388) and poskim, who are quite explicit in categorizing mesirah as pretty much 'yehareg ve'al yaavor'. Whether somebody's behaviour constitutes a chillul-hashem is for...Hashem to judge, not you. And btw, 'dina demalchussa' is an extremely limited concept - nice to see all the ignorant experts spouting such ignorance. What happened to dan-lekaf-zechus ? Or is that just lip service, like the rest of your pseudo-orthodoxy ?!

 

JB and others, are prepared to whitewash the murkiest of deeds with any smokescreen or cover-up that comes to hand. Hence he invokes, 'dan-lekaf-zechus' for the Spinkas (only) and 'yehareg ve'al yaavor' for the Mosser, whom he doesn't leave to Hashem to judge. All I see in c"m 388 is the circumstances when a mosser is chayyav for the monetary loss he has caused, and that he loses Olam Habo. So which recognised authority holds he is a Rodef ? Esquire has written "If the individual defendants are all found not guilty, great". Really ? Not if its over a technicality or lack of evidence. If such were the outcome, all it means is the defendants get away with their devious deeds, while Klal Yisroel foots the bill for the Chillul Hashem. We are talking here about the (hopefully false ) perception of frum, gelernt Yidden being a bunch of cheats and swindlers as well as, of course, tax dodgers and fraudsters, which is what I imagine the average John Doe makes out of this news item being broadcast throughout USA. That would be defined to be Chillul Hashem as in Yoma 86a and in the Sefer Hachinuch on the Possuk "Velo Sechallalu Es Shem Kodshi" (in Parshas Emor) which it counts among the 613. So there are clear prescriptions of what behaviour constitutes a chillul-hashem and it is for frum Yidden to enlighten those who are unaware, of its severity. And no, an animal korbon does not atone for it. A Kappara can only come by way of Missah and Yessurim r"l. Also, frum Yidden have no licence to sign false statements - Midvar Sheker Tirchok - thats another Issur Gomur in the Torah, apart from Dinah DeMalchusah. I recall when I was in yeshiva, the Mashgiach saying "on this money, you pay tax". Do they teach that in heintige yeshivos in BP? The word has to go out that as taxpayers, we should never be in a position of being afraid if our returns are selected by IRS auditors. Bechol Es, Yihyui Begodechah LeVonim (Kohelet 9)

 

Attention JB,

The Gemara says that there are only three things that are “ye’haraig v’al “ya’avor:”

1. Gilui Aroyos (sex offenses, e.g. rape);

2. Shefichas Damim (murder); and

3. Avodah Zarah (idol worship).

Which one of these constitues mesirah? And under what authority?

Put up or shut up.

As for the other idiotic comments you made, no one ever said "felonies and misdemeanors trump halacha." That makes no sense whatsoever probably because YOU made it up.

But tell me, is there a justification under halacha to commit the federal crimes of money laundering, tax evasion, conspiracy, and the other crimes charged?

Incidentally, if you cannot personally figure out when someone is committing a Chilul Hashem then all your Torah learning amounts to Gurnisht.

 

Post a Comment

This page is powered by Blogger. Isn't yours?

Google
Chaptzem! Blog

-