Tuesday, March 18, 2008

Out of the Inbox - Bocher in learning boy / working boy shidduch trap 

Sent in by a Chaptzem reader

Dear Chaptzem readers I am writing this letter to you in the hopes that some of my pain will get through and you will understand what many buchrim like me are going through.

I am nineteen years old and I am a chasidisher bucher with a biber hat. I am in yeshive now and I am looking for a shidduch. It is not easy for me. I learn a little bit here and there throughout the day, as much as I can. I know I am not even close to being a masmid, but I try to push myself as much as I can to learn.

What really breaks me into little pieces is that my mother goes around telling all the shadchunim what a big learner I am and that I need a girl that will support me in learning for many years. I don't know, but I just can't see myself having to sit in kolel for the next who knows how many years just because my future wife and father in law thinks that that is what I am. I can see myself having a shiur every day after work but not to be stuck in a kolel for many years. It's just not me.

I tried talking to my mother about this, but she just won't listen to anything I say. If a shadchan tries for me a girl that is my type (someone that is looking for a husband that works) then my mother says no before he can even say another word. And then if the girl is looking for a learning boy, most of the time they're not interested in me because the information comes back that I'm not such a learner.

People, do you see my situation here? I will either marry a girl who thinks I am a gevaldige learner and have to fake for the rest of my life and and go crazy in the meanwhile, or my mother will just say no to everything else.

I don't what I hope to get from this maybe it will be at least a bechina of 'tzures rabim chutzi nechume'.

Make sure all your references tell the truth about who you are and what you want in life. Otherwise it could Chas V'Shulem be a disaster.


Have a long talk with your Rosh Yeshiva.


Maybe you have to speak to your Rebbe or Rov and have him speak to your parents about your feelings. I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with a young man going out to work as long as he is "koveia itin". It is not easy to remain in kollel for many years and have one's wife work while raising the children, and it is not easy for everyone to afford to support a son in law in learning. I hope everything works out for you. You sound like someone I would want as a son in law.


Go find a shadchan you can talk to and work behind your mothers back, or maybe have the shadchan lie to your mother about what the girl wants.


az a shidduch is bashert vet as veren zorg nisht


i hate to say it, but ultimately its your life, not your mothers. it seems like you only have 1 option: refuse to date any of the girls your mother tries to set you up with until she gets the point. you need to explain to your mother (respectfully) that she is clearly doing what's best for HER and not what's best for YOU. just refuse to cooperate with this game she is playing until your mother gets the point. she will (eventually). you're only 19 and waiting a little while won't kill you.
marrying someone based on a lie/misrepresentation is a recipie for disaster/divorce. DON'T DO IT


speak to your mother and tell its time she realizes that all though is your mother and you have to respect her this is not a decision for a day or week and that over here its for the rest of your life and therefor very respectfully you should tell her that you will take her advice into consideration however you are also and manly looking for your interest and how you will be happy. you can tell her that its not always what other people think that counts what counts over here is that you find some one who is right for you and that together you will please Gd bring up a family in the way u think is bets.


i feel your pain, and i totaly agree with the previous comment. talk to your mother. it wont easy for her to accept it. alot of parents are looking for "mechitunim" not having in mind their own childs interest. talk to your mother day after day and slowly she will -iyh- realize the truth. i wish you hatzlucha rabba.


I've got news for you dear bachur: EVERYONE LIES. You think that every 'learning' boy tah-keh learns for say, 2-3 years----nope! It's all lies. Part of a screwed up system that needs to be fixed.

Um, have you noticed how it's no longer acceptable to say that a boy will learn for 2-3 years, that has now been stepped up to 3-4 years? It just doesnt pas to say 2-3 years because that means 8 months and off to work! And translated 3-4 years means one year of learning.

It's all a pack of lies.


O.K. my friend,, here we goooooooooo I was in the same situation as you are,,,, what I did is very simple, every time that I had a BOSHOW I told the girl what I am all about... my parents wanted to kill me,,, untile onegirl told me I am in the same siuation, thats the one I got. dont worry g-d will help you just go with the Emes.

Hatzlocha, HAPPY Purim. good luck


You can refuse to date girls who are looking for a learner. Talk to the shadchan about what you are really looking for. Or, if you feel pressure to go on the dates your Mom sets up then at the beginning of the date tell the girls that you want to work. Just don't get married because of pressure from your mother. Wait a couple years. A boy with a job? You'll do fine.


i feel so much for this poor guy, parents unfortunately sometimes are looking out for themselves a little more than the child, and having prestigious mechutanim can override their child's happiness. i don't think there is anyone who doesn't realize the absurd situation we are in with shidduchim right now, the question is : does anyone have the courage to do anything to right this wrong so we will have no more letters from a frustrated person like this? any thoughts on a positive approach to this issue??


Get a backbone and take control of your own destiny. It's your life, so live it!


just say the truth that you will not be learning in kollel to long if she is maskim then the shidduch is for you if not then its just not a shidduch for you


It's not easy, but you need to make your views clear--either to your mother or the young women you meet. I'm sure your mother loves you and wants what she feels is best for you, but if she can't accept that your choice in a wife may be different than her choice in mechutanim, she's not ready for you get married. It's essential to your future marriage that this be resolved, because otherwise she may continue to try make decisions in what she feels is your best interest; standing up for what's best for you now may be good practice for the future.


Have a long talk with Hakodesh Boruch Hu and be mispallel, and me confident and patient. A person has nisyonos from every direction, including his own family. Echod Haya Avrohom. See Likutei Moharan between Part 1 and Part 2.


I'm sorry that you are in such a hard situation..i had a similar scenerio when i was dating..i didn't want a learning boy and my parents refused to listen...but, i did not budge...this is my life and i have to live with my spouse. my parents dont have to live with him. after being persistant for quite some time...and refusing to go out with the type of boy that i was not looking for.. they finally realized that if they wanted me to get married they would have to give in.... and i am happy that i stood my ground. Baruch Hashem.
If you marry a girl that is expecting you to be something you are not... you will be miserable..C"V...she won't be your tyepe, she won't respect you..you need to stick up for your rights...which is to marry someone that will be good for you.
wishing you lots of hatzlacha, mazel and bracha! and don't worry too much ...HAshem is mezaveg zivugim!!


i speak to many boys about finding the correct spouse
they all sound like this boy
its normal to think that your parents dont know what you want or need
because the boys have there marriage priority in their minds wrong
let me try to explain
most semi hassidic boys think that girls watch movies
and that the girl my mother wants for me wont let me watch a movie etc.
they dont realize is that movies is not the reason for deciding on a girl if yes or no
they think that if i wont be able to watch then i have no reason to live they
want to kill them self
or they wonder "what will i do with my time i will go crazy"

they think that girls dont like to have a good time they are right in a sense
but what they dont realize is that when they meet the girl you can ask her
if she has a problem going to a restaurant or going to florida for vacation etc.
all those questions should be asked to see if shes outgoing or your type and
you need to also look how she responds to the questions.

what you need to tell your mother to tell the shadchan is that im a boy that has a strong rutzohn to learn (and thats better then a boy that says i will learn for 4-5 yrs. but what happens next you go work and you stop learning? so you make clear to the shadchan that its better a boy that will always have a shiur for the rest of his life.)

im also a p/t shadchan and i call up the parents of girls and there are plenty of fathers that tell me i want a boy that is a mentch and has a strong rutzen to learn. i don t need the biggest massmid.

DONT WORRY you are just like all the hundred other boys out there in the hassidic community wearing bibber hats and having parents that dont know what you want.
there is a great book called dating secrets sold in hemishe local stores or it used to be called shiddumhim secrets. i would advise you to read that book
when you read that book you will know what is the most important things in a jewish marriage and i guarantee you when you go out with the next girl you will know what to ask her. and remember you have to ask her if she has a problem going out to eat or going on a honey moon look close on the way she reacts
and hashem will help you and you will find your bashert

you need to daven and daven and as much as you daven is still not enough
i wish you good luck and a happy purim go out go collecting with your friends have a good time while you can happy purim!!!!!


I applaud you. It's about time that young men want to be earners and learners. Tell your mother that not everyone is meant for kollel. Some are meant to have a trade or a parnassah. That is your basherete in life along with a irl with a good heart.


I chuckled when I read some of the un"help"ful comments. If he is a boy with a bibber hat, he is not going to get to date. His mother will pick a gal for him. That is what he is scared about. If he would get to date, he would be able to explain to the girl. But in his world, he meets girl right before the engagement party. He needs to tell his mother loud and clear, "either you hear what I'm saying, or I will be taking care of my own shidduch my own way." she might finally hear him.


if you vant to vork, start by registering for an ESL ( English as a Second Language) because gosh you really need it, your teachers,elders and Clergy ought to be ashamed of themselves letting somebody leave school (or the system) as you are.


oi vay, how you talk, ashamed you should be




tell your mother she can force and force but youre NOT marrying her. understandable that in the chassidish world its not likeyou can "date" behind her back like people suggestted! or call up the shadchan!! but if you refuserefuserefuse, she will ultimately have to give in. Another thing to realize though is what someone else said, this entire world is just such a facade. you "learning for a few years" could very well mean "learning at night while you work"-but on paper it sounds diff. I REaLLY HOPE your mom chaps that. but to your face she might just not want to "admit" to you, "ok fine just you can go work' because it would be disappointing. how about sitting down and having a very long talk with her? hatzlocha!


for all those that think that chassidish boys parents set up the girl and the boy has no say in the matter,you are so naive.
and if you think that dating is better then a bersho listen to tapes from rabbi ezriel tauber on the subject and he will explain that you can date a hundred times and think you know her but you are so wrong. just wait until you have a children or have financial problems. oh how you will see a new women. bottom line their no difference between dating and bershows
if your chassidish then dont even dream of having a date that will never happen
to the bacher that posted the question you have to much time on your hand. go to college at night touro college is a frum local college there is a campus on ave. J in flatbush and there is a boro park branch on 53 and 13
you can ask your parents or you can be bold and mature and go down yourself and find out what you need and register and then come home and tell you parents that im GOING TO COLLEGE and learning in the morning.
but remember dont tell the shadchan but also remember to tell the girl you meet that you plan on going to college
good luck and i agree with the post above go buy yourself the book dating secrets it really helped me.
and above all you wont get any advice from post sites. im talking form experience the blog sites will only mess you up mentally and make you have more questions and only you get you more depressed and angry GO TO A RABBI there are great rabbis out there.


I am a Shadchante myself, and therefore I sympathize with this honest good bucher'l. This same dilemna that you, Dear Bucher'l are going through, is happening since two / three generations already, unfortunately. My experiences as a Shadchante, in the Chasidishe community, where boys and girls don't go out dating, has taught me how NAIVE the nicest, most intelligent, and the finest of the parents can be.. Their one CHASURON most of the time is; they are PSYCHOLOGICALLY BLIND!!! Up to the point where they would force their children into distructive marriages... why?? because they are not being realistic about their childs true being. Forcing a Bucher or a girl to be what he/she ain't, will only make the child rebel, and Chas V. make matters worse, Hashem Yerachem!! On the other hand, supporting and honoring the childs wishes, will most likely lead to possitive results BE'EZTAS HASHEM. It is obvious that you are a smart mature Bucher, coping presently with so much uncalled for stress. I would highly recommend that you respectfully explain to your parents your legitimate fears, and request firmly that they be "VERY" TRUTHFUL and "VERY" HONEST with the Shadchonim. As a Shadchante I have parents lying to me in such an honest manner, that I literally buy into them so many times..too many times..!! But B"H not all the time. and I'm not dumb!! I successfully did already over 60 Shiduchim B"H. My experience has taught me that whenever I was fed with untrue information..which I innocently repeated to the "other side" the end results were.. like you have been experiencing.. The other sides dug deep enough to find out that the info I fed them (innocently) was "BOGUS" So what happened and still happens is that everyone stays BAPATCHT and TZUKLOPPT. Lies don't work!! DER EMES SHVIMT AROIF.
Dear Parents! Please wake up! Stop destroying yourselves, your dear helpless children, (before they help/destroy themselves..!!) And last but least, Stop destroying the Shadchonim!! Because this is why we get fed up and QUIT!! then parents cry, "Where are all the Shadchonim?!" You, stubborn natured parents are throwing us away! We are fed up with your being dishonest to us, as well as to yourselves!! It's pure foolish! It brings no results, except for wasting our precious time and energy. We, "THE HONEST/DISHONEST SHADCHUNIM" get rewarded with a nice "Gift wrapped" PEKEL of all GEZUNTE PESUKIM, from the "other side" Thank you!
Bucherl Teierer, You are going through a Nissoiyon. Please try to keep strong with Emunah and Betuchon. Hashem is the Mezaveg Zevugim. Your Basherte was prepared exclusively just for you way before you were even born. When the right time will IMY"H come you will understand why it was ltoivah that you had to go through what you are going through. Be Mispallel for the Zivugim for your Chaveirim, and for the so many ELTERE Bucherim. And thus Hashem will listen to your honest Tvillos,and answer you with your Righteous Zivug Bekurov IMY"H.
p.s. It couldn't hurt if you showed to your mother the letter that you printed, and especially the responses to your letter. I think that by her reading it, she might realize how serious a situation like this really is!. If you feel uncomfortable to do it, I have two suggestions.#1; Write to her about your feelings. Sometimes it's easier in writing than verbally. #2; Print out this entire page, your letter, and all the responses. Place it in an envelope. On the envelope write something like.(in your own version and language of course.) To my Dearest Mother..... From your forever... son.
Hatzlocho Rabeh!


Where do you get the book on dating secrets? What is the exact name of the book? Is it for the yiddshe oilem? Please help. I think (or know) I NEED THIS BOOK!!


To: re
Where do you get the book on dating secrets? What is the exact name of the book? Is it for the yiddshe oilem? Please help. I think (or know) I NEED THIS BOOK!!
you can buy the book in any local store in boro park or flatbush or follow this link http://www.eichlers.com/Product/Books/Engagement_and_Marriage/Dating_Secrets_-_The_Ultimate_Guide_to_Finding_Your_Spouse_%5BHardcover%5D_220-6.html
the book is fwd. bu the famous rabbi a.j. twerskey


reply to old hag that wrote

March 18, 2008 8:06 PM

first of all why are you writing in capital letters. you probably are the biggest yentel mental on the site you think that if you write bold letters everyone will read it and for your info you use bold when you want to scream.

second what is it your business whos on the internet or what type of hats are viewing the internet. do you know why boys with such hats are online and in the chat rooms and watching other junk?
is because of THE OLD PEOPLE LIKE YOU.
i dont get it, do you have a different god or a different shilchun urich whats the f@@@ is the difference what type of hat he wears. and how the h#$$ do you have the time to be online answering blog sites. dont you have a family

its because of parents like you and parents that live for OH VEY WHAT WILL THE NEIGHBORS SAY thats why the next generation is so messed up and open your eyes from the words you wrote A BOY WITH A BIBER HAT DOES NOT BELONG ON THE INTERNET...
do you see the next generation already or are you to old to see the future before your eyes.




50 year old Chassideshe womean shouldn't even know what the internet is!
our bocher should get an erliche girl for two reasons:
1) He may be the only honest man in Boro Park

Furthermore she is an ignoramus-
2)There is a midrash that explains, Yaakov was punished with maaseh Shechem for hiding Dinah in a box from Esav -as dinah would have brought him back to Hashem. So even if we agree with Mrs. 50 year old busybody that he is "bad" all them ore reason for him to maryy an Erliche girl.


To Anonymous March 18, 8:06pm; Lady, you are a 50 year old chassidishe schm---ette! YOU'RE the one who doesn't belong on the internet. Why? Because you are an ignorant, biased fool. Since when does wearing a bibber hat cut off blood supply to the brain? This boy should be commended for using technology to ask for help. I'll bet it's YOUR own son or daughter who is fooling around with goyim or worse! Or maybe you are. This boy certainly deserves "a fine ehrlech girl" because he sounds like a fine ehrlech boy. I sure hope he doesn't get a machashefer like you. When you'll be G-d, then you can go around judging other people. But until then, look only at yourself and see your own faults.


to anonymous: March 18, 2008 8:06 PM

"A BOY WITH A BIBER HAT DOES NOT BELONG ON THE INTERNET..." how dare you!! If the 50 year old chasidishe woman is on the internet, why shouldn’t he be? What I am saying is that you have to practice what you preach. This is exactly the problem here, there is a major misconnect here. This mother is probably in denial and is probably only looking for shiduchim that match her status in the community (as past nisht) and not for what he really needs. Maybe maybe this is exactly the reason he is on the internet to begin with, since he can't openly talk to his mother he goes and looking for a way to express his feelings. The problem is not that he is not ehrlich, but communication, love and understanding from the parents.

I was in exactly the same situation (biber hat and all) but I stood my ground and I am now married 10 years, and happy as can be with 3 wonderful children. My wife is the most wonderful person in the world, a heart of gold, taking care of the family and doing chesed outside of the house is her specialty, and she is a working woman as well. My parents love her as their own. (Yes we have our differences) Not everyone is made to sit in kolell.

to anonymous: March 18, 2008 6:48 PM
I konw of chasidishe people (with biber hat) who met a lot more that just right before their engagement.

to anonymous: March 19, 2008 12:44 AM
It is a great advice to college and an education, but why shouldn’t he tell the shadchan? I believe in being straight forward with people especially when it comes to marriage. Ultimately, hiding these kinds of stuff only causes problems. Being open about everything is what ultimately led my shadchan to my wife. Yes, I had to wait till I was 24 but it was worth the wait.

I am sure your mother loves you, but love means doing what is right for you and not for her own image/ego.

I wish the best of hatzlacha. There is somebody out there for you.


To the 50 year old Chasidishe "smart experienced"... woman תחי' עמו"ש:
I am a "very" Chasidishe 56 year old woman myself, עמו"ש.
Firstly I hope that the Bucher who wrote his heartbreaking letter, did not take your harsh, heartless, and inappropriate letter to heart. To my knowledge and lots of experiences in my own family, friends, and especially in the Chasidishe community, where Bucherim are sometimes being too restricted. I find... and majority of the "REAL" sensible Chasidishe Madrichim, Klal do-ers, Rabbonim as well, agree, that if we "all" as "mature" adults would deal with our dear children/Talmidim, V'talmidos, with more understanding, and carry our "patiently active listening" tools with us always, we and our children could have had a much better productive life in every aspect. For example: Let's keep things in prospective here..We are discussing here and now about "THE REAL CHASIDISHE" Bucherim with the BIBER HITLECH, SHTUFFENE HITLECH... our type.
#1- In every family today, without exceptions, especially in bigger families קע"ה( this includes all kinds.. Casidish, Litvish, secular, etc. etc.)there are all types of children. No two people are alike. Some were born to become GEOIYNIM. Some not! Some children are stronger than others. Some children can push harder, and some get exausted more easily. Some have certain wonderful talents and in order to cope they must use those talents too be able to function better in life. Some just need a little break..and some need a little "extra break". For example; Many Ehrliche Men/Women need a coffee break or a cigarrette (not women, hopefully)to FARENTFER AH TEEFER TOISFES or just to go about their normar daily business. Many Ehrliche need a vacation occasionally. Some Ehrliche need "EXTRA EXTRA STRONG COFFEE" or "EXTRA EXTRA LONNNGGG VACATIONS to continue coping. only a MAALUCH could cope otherwise!! Some Bucherim have weaknesses, and thus fall behind alittle here and there. But if we as mature parents don't want to understand their crisis, then you may expect matters to get much worse! If all we do, is "degrade" them for not being what they cannot be or will not be, they will eventually get worse and worse. The harsh language that Mrs. 50 year old used, is one good example of why hundreds and hundreds of Bucherim and girls went off the Derech, unfortunately. Her letter made me cry bitter tears. I have 7 sons קע"ה עמו"ש. I went through some bitter hard times with 2 of the seven, during their teen age years. We cannot control Chavrusa or Sviva all the time, right???? But active listening and actively understanding (as much as our senses allow us)was a must in our dictionary! Of course we weren't angels at all times. At some point we all loose control here and there, because we are only human. But the more we were experiencing some major downfalls, we knew that there must be another way. Firstly, Constant daily TVILOS to Hashem.. "FOREVER"! Secondly, Lenience and support. When I found out that my bucher was driving or smoking, behind our backs.. I encouraged him to take "DRIVING LESSONS" Yes, Mrs. 50, you heard me right! when I smelled his FARREICHERTE REKEL, I bought him a 10 pack at the "DUTY FREE" place, and wrapped it nicely, and as I gave it to him, I jokingly smiled to him, with sincere love, and asked him to please use it sparingly. I made sure that we kept connected with an extra sincere loving bond. and because he knew that he's got his parents' approval and sincere love, and patience B"H, therefore in a later later time he felt somewhat shameful and regretful, and things started changing for the better.. the much better B"H. He is today,(16 years later) a Magid Sheur for Bucherim in a very prominent Yeshiva. He is a special good Baal Mechanech, and he devotes most of his time with helping weaker boys get back on track..B"H.
My other son with whom we struggled so much, and of course we used the same technique, is now a wonderful Ehrlicher father and businessman. Has a sheur kovia every morning. Raises his children.. a Nachas to see.
Even though I am and come from a very Chasidishe Backgroud, I applaud the Yeshivish/Litvish community for some of their different views then ours. They are not restricted with their Bucherim when it comes to certain areas, like biking to Yeshiva. Playing baseball occasionally. For them it is basically routine, and therefore they don't need to seek to hide behind the bush. I guess that such a lifestyle gives them that space they need.. because from what I see and hear, they are gevaldige Masmidim, and Talmudei Chachumim. Maybe if we were just a little bit more lenient in some areas, such as allowing Bucherim (who want ) to play baseball or basket ball once a weak in every Chasidishe Yeshiva.. just to let it out alittle.. things might have been different.
SiMcHaS PeEeRrIM, and a FRaYLiChE TOoOoMmiD.


to the 50 year old who wrote and was wondering how a chasidishe boy has access to the internet?
the internet today its not going away no matter how much any rebbe will talk about it get real and get with the program
also why because you are 50 do you have a right to internet acess?

i pity your children if you have any
actually im jealous of them because they are most probably pulling the wool over your eyes and you dot even begin to have a clue!!!!


50 year old chasidishe lady!! I am a 52 year old "old fashioned Chasidishe woman with a shpitsl;" and yes I am on the internet (with filternet, but that is not the point here.)How dare you come out in bold letters shaming an entire Chasidishe community, with your cruel none sensible remarks! Do you have children? are they still WITH you??!! Go for a mental check, and read some Musser Sfurim. And YOU better stay away from the internet! I bet you don't have either Kosher net or Filternet. Purim is a good time for TSHUVA. Purim is like yom Kippur. First ask foregiveness from this innocent "ERLICHE" bucher, and than ask foregiveness from Hashem! Simchas Peerim
Att: readers:
This 50 year old "CHASIDISHE"woman does not represent the typical Chasiddishe woman: case closed!


reply to the righteous 50 year old its says hemiviesh chaveroh briabem etc. you know the ending statement
it also says in chazal that if you embarrass your friend in public the only way to ask for forgiveness is in public since you have clearly hurt the chasuvah bachur in public write a post asking for forgiveness like this youll be on the safe side. especially such a high time in the year the yom tov purim (and the readers wont be angry and you can be blessed with the blessing of brining shalom al yisroel)


It is not so easy. I really feel for you. I too am a chasside man, though quite a lot older than you, probably your mother's age. Unfortunately, many people delude themselves about their kids. They see their kids as they want them to be, instead of who they really are.

Or, maybe, she does know you, but is foolishly thinking that if you get a shidduch that puts you in kollel, ou will "grow into it" ...

You are truly caught between being honest, and kibid av v'aim.

There is SOME good, valid advice above (among the junk):

Go to your rebbe with your mother. I know that is not easy, for you think the rebbe will be disappointed in you. Wrong. He will be proud of your honesty, and will talk to your mother about it.

Explain to your mother, in the most respectful tone you can find, that you will be honest with whatever shidduch is brought to you. At the b'show, be brutally honest. Stay polite and respectful, but tell the girl exactly what YOU believe is right. Your mother may be upset, but after a few, she will stop as she will see that she can't do it her way. Now, you must be very careful to do this without being over on Kibid aim. This is not easy. You are not allowed to embarrass her. Maybe tell the shadchan that he must phone you or meet with you alone before you will give any response, and talk it over with him, telling him what you really want.
But, if you figure out a way to do this without embarrassing your mother, tell the kallah openly at the b'show what your plans are.
One way is to ask permission from your mother, in front of everybody, to say something. Then rave about the wonderful mother you have, and how supportive she is of your education, and your future, blah, blah, blah. Build her up to really show your kovod.
Then, say, something like,

"I know my mother, with her love and dedication to me and my future is talking about my being in kollel x years, but, honestly, though I do learn, I am not a great talmid chuchom, and would not try to make anyone believe I am good kollel material; my plans are to work, and attend a daily shiur in the evening. I would much rather have help towards a business, or ....... and towards the best medical coverage I can have, especially so that my wife has the best.

"I don't want my family dependent on others, and want to be the source of support. A little help to get started would be greatly appreciated, but not at the expense of selling myself as someone I am not.

"I believe I can be a wonderful husband and father, and build a chassidishe home, bringing children to love the torah and our chassidishe life, but just like with Yisuchar and Zivlin, one worked to support the other's leaning, I would be the worker, supporting Torah learning, while I myself limit myself to a daily shiur."

You are not alone. Many, many Chassidishe yingerleit work, actually a majority, and are 100% self supporting, and many had your problem.

Bottom line, honesty, keep your respect for your mother, but work around it. And... remember,.... if you must disagree with your mom at the b'show, do it with utmost respect, praising the woman to the fullest extent of the law.
(Besides, if you go against her, or embarrass her at the b'show, that will turn any good girl away from you anyway. So, keep your kovod, but be a man, an honest man.)


reply to:

Bottom line, honesty, keep your respect for your mother, but work around it. And... remember,.... if you must disagree with your mom at the b'show, do it with utmost respect, praising the woman to the fullest extent of the law.
(Besides, if you go against her, or embarrass her at the b'show, that will turn any good girl away from you anyway. So, keep your kovod, but be a man, an honest man.)

what you say is 100%true but i was in the same position as this bachur not to long ago
and im telling you this you dont have to worry about getting a girl that wants you to always sit and learn because before you meet the girl the parents know exactly who you are and know how long you plan on sitting and learning but when you im'h go and meet a girl for a bersho you dont have to say that my mother wants a girl that will sit and support a boy that will sit and learn. what a girl wants to hear is that you are machshev torah and will have a shiur every day
if you say the word mother in anyway you can think of.even if you have the best way of saying it ( i cant think of any way) the girl will drop you like a hot potato
in order to get the truth out you dont have to mention a word about your mother
girls want boys that are mature and make their own decisions in life.
and about speaking to your mother i wish you the best of luck and dont stop trying but if you dont get threw to her dont worry i was in your position and i tried talking to my parents and it didnt work
not because they didnt listen it was because i thought that they dont want the best for me.and when i asked them again after i read the book DATING SECRETS i realized they were not that off
you have to verify exactly why your parents are telling the shaddchan that you plan on learning
im a shaddchan myself and bacher lebin they brain wash the girls that you have to take a learning boy. their is nothing you can do about it i know from experience that if you dont lie by a shidduch you only get ungitrugen garbage its so so sad and heart breaking but bucheril this is the F up boro park their is a saying if you cant fight it join the club (something like that) you cant fight the community. and i know what im saying sounds wack but remember this that hashem is mizavig zivegim and im telling you this that if you will be mikabid your parents you will get a extra special girl as i see for my self and my friends that are in the same position as us
have bituchen and ask hashem this purim that he should help you find your bashert and it should come easy.
happy purim
go buy the book and try getting in contact with a rabbi their is a great rabbi called rabbi horowitz he has website you can try and email him he is very busy but he can help you a lot
( i tried pasting the link to eichlers.com but for some reason its not working)


Getting married to someone under false pretenses is a BAD idea. (I've seen that one a few times).

If nothing else on the first date say to the woman "I don't want to learn in kollel but want to go work and learn after work".

Most of the women will run screaming in the other direction, marry the one who doesn't ;).


To Chasidishe Mrs. 56; (March 19, 4:55 P.M.) Your letter was very inspiring to me and my friends. but you made one point that will never happen in the Chasidishe yeshivas. Playing ball or other activities during the year. Only in summer camps we get that privilege, and some camps don't have any sport activities at all, except for going swimming. I know that most Minhallim (Principals)and Rush Hayeshivas, and Bucherim Masmidim, would not appreciate or honor such a suggestion. and we can't blame them, because they are happy and feel privaledged to learn for long hours retzeefas. An hour lunch break and other short breaks between sheurim is sufficient enough for them. There are Chasidishe yeshivas that have more privaledges, but they are also popular for having the Shvachere (weaker...) bucherim. So where do the Chasidishe Smartheads, but not the biggest Massmidim fit in??? Nowhere! Can anyone help us with suggestions? Can anyone give suggestions to our Minhallim?? Or do we have to look for our own ways to "hide behind the bush"? The easy way out for the prominent yeshives is to "get rid" of us instead of helping us! So what can anyone expect of us, since we have no acceptance, and have to be on our own, and do things on our own. If we would go to work at 18/19 we would be considered the biggest Bums. If we kvetch the benk in Yeshiva (where they didn't throw us out yet, because we are EINGEHALTEN.. and sort of keep up (Forcefully.. but logo at lunch or after hours, our parents beleive that we'll do a better Shiduch.. Please help us with suggestions.


To the group of EINGEHALTENE bucherim:
Firstly I commend you for still being in yeshiva and trying to fit in, even forcefully. Because you are still in the Torah environment, and even if you feel or think that you are only kvetching the benk.. you are probably enjoying at least "one" Sheur (שיעור( a day.. other wise you would have dropped out and "bummed" all day, regardless of your fears of shiduchem. My suggestions to you and your friends would be;
a- continue learning at least that one Sheur that you enjoy the most with CHAISHUK (חשק), because even though you might not be aware.. unconsciously you are still somewhat gaining a SIMCHAS HACHAIM from it. Bumming around doesn't really make you happy, even if you think that you are happy..inside your heart you and all Bucherim in your situation, are yearning for TRUE happiness.
My next suggestion would be that you find yourself a part time Kosher job that you can and should enjoy. Make yourself a Sheur Kovia if possible, even just for 1/2 hour a day. I guarantee you that you will be much happier, and you will eventually,(בקרוב) do a better Shidduch that way.
With warmest wishes from the heart
I wish you and your friends the best of both worlds, and השי"ת (Hashem)Baruch Hee should lead you in the right direction.
From a very "EHRLICHE CASSIDISHE" Yiddishe Mamme


Hi Bochur
here is my advice to you.
Stop dating!
First, start living your life the way you want it. THEN, you will find someone your type.
Also by then your mother will be so desperate for you to get married you could walk in with an ape practically.
So you want to work? Go to college? As Hillel said in the Mishna, START NOW!
if you can't do it now, you'll have it even harder the longer you wait.
Can you do this alone? NO! you can not face the pressure alone. you will almost certainly back down unless you have support. So go find some supportive people, in your community or outside of it! And if you don't know where to turn or afraid to speak up, pay a professional therapist in the meantime.
my two cents.


dont worry no one will think that youre a masmid even your mother tells evrybody. and the girl if she cant tell that your far from a masmid it servs her right chances are that she full of it just like you envey hgefen mazel tov


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