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I agree that it is uncomfortable for the other people. But if the Mother is doing it discreetly and and a tzniusdik manner, properly covered up, then why is it wrong?
Do YOU eat in a bathroom???
Enjoy your Pizza and don't look at what everyone around you is eating even BABIES. that is also Yentish.
It seems that your problem is not the nursing. but the general loud manner that all those at the table behaved in

 

Think of the Halachic problems if this was a fleshig restaurant.

 

why should the baby have to eat his lunch in the smelly farpishte bathroom? Maybe if the stores provided some decent bathroom areas, with stalls, and a chair outside the stalls to nurse, then it would be another story.
You can't hog up the bathroom either, for ½ hour. Already, the lines for the bathroom in the pizza shops are nonstop. What if your 3-year old needs the bathroom? Are you then gonna shout at the woman to get out of the bathroom, cuz bathrooms are meant for pishing - not for eating?

 

"I am not chasidish nor am I litvish, I am what you would call a typical Boro Park woman."

???

 

I completely agree with you. It was a total lack of tznius. A woman has to be more discreet while feeding her baby that way and the women should not have been "carrying on" so racuously. You don't have to be Chasididsh or Yeshivish to realize that, just plain frum.

 

Obviously this restaurant had no problem with people bringing in outside food. If she was covered which i hope she was, she was alot more tzniusdik than alot of people in the street.

 

It would be nice if eating establishments could provide more privacy for its clients. I believe that eating out in public is not so proper, but, if one must do it there should be more privacy.

 

I agree with you that young mothers nowadays have become militant nursers. Any mention of the dreaded word "bottle" and they get this insidious, angry look of utter hatred and disgust as if only some demonic babykiller could bottle-feed their baby. Meanwhile, they foist their public breastfeeding on the public when, in America 30 or 40 years ago, it was totally taboo.

 

why is this even an issue???

When a baby has to eat you feed him/her... i don't see why tznius should be a factor, it's not like she wasn't pole dancing.

It all depends on how your mind works.

 

see! in willamsburg we gota thank berl klein owner of "kleins restaurent" he made a fantastic thing rite there in middle of wili on bedford av. ontop of his cafe with stairs outside on st. its called "aim habunim smaichu" special 4 nursing mothers! a comfortble room, what a chesed it was in the news papers few weeks ago....

 

It means to say more on the moder side.

 

when i was still single, i used to travel on the Will- BP bus daily. I would average at least once a week where i saw mothers nursing their children on the bus in full site of others. I thought it was disgusting. I see it all the time all over. In ever place. I recently went to an all girls performance and one woman brought her baby along (why??!!)and nursed her right in the middle of the auditoriom. What happened to busha? Dont women care anymore at all about tznius?

 

be dan lekav zechus . maybe she was practicing on a doll.

 

If I was in the pizza shop I might have approached her and requested a bit of breast milk for my coffee. There is nothing like the paliative effects of breast milk on the immune system on cold winter day !
Then

 

perhaps im stupid, but i did not get the connection between the fact that you dont work and the thread of your story?

 

this women was not a nursing mother

 

she is right finished

 

Should she take along her 2 screaming toddlers to the bathroom?

If it's done in a tzniusdig matter I don't see an issue with that.

Anon @ 9:51 AM: Good One!

 

"I am not chasidish nor am I litvish"
then you must be crazy.
I once heard such a comment from someone: i'm not chassidish yet I'm not litvish, what am I??" and the answer is: YOURE CRAZY.

 

craned my neck

Why did you do that? Why is everything have to be your business ?

 

If a woman is well covered up so that she does not expose herself at all,and she is quietly and discreetly feeding her baby without calling undo attention to herself, then I don't see what is wrong with nursing in public. I don't think it is right for people to stare at her, any more then it is right for a man to stare at a woman. I consider myself a tzenua, yet when my children were babies (a long time ago), if there was no other alternative, I would nurse in a bus, or a park bench,, but, I made sure to cover myself completely with a blanket. What's wrong with that? Nursing is the way to go. It is even mentioned in the Torah.

 

Why always the self-righteous, intellectual chest-beating breast feeding militia have to make a shtink about their right to breast feed in a crowded pizza shop.

You have a few other options!

1.You don't HAVE to go to a pizza shop.
2.make a bottle WITH breast milk.Ever heard of a pump?There's no aveira of motzi milk!
3.Feed your little one before leaving for the pizza shop.Even if you're one of the "on demand" feeders, you you have a good 45 minutes- hour forsure.

People who are suffer from frequent urination dont have the right to urinate in the restaurant stall even if they "have to."
I think that people who breast-feed in public either are very disorganized and all over the place,or just a weird feminist fringe faction that they can do what they want when they want with "their bodies" .

 

is this discussed in the shulchan oruch? I don't recall seeing it anywhere.

 

I'm not Chassisdish, not Litvish,
not - well, whatever. Well, in that case, why NOT. We don't mind...

 

To:
Think of the Halachic problems if this was a fleshig restaurant.

Comment Credit ---This article posted by Anonymous : March 04, 2008 9:51 AM


Breast Milk is neither milk nor meat. It would be considered Pareve.

 

You are right! The world will now come to an end on account of a mother feeding her child! Shame!

 

grow up lady, to each her own, let each mother do as she pleases.

 

If Hashem wanted us to be fed from bottles, He wouldn't have given women the ability to nurse children. If the writer considers nurisng to be disgusting, what does she consider all the other things Hashem created our bodies to do?

 

why don't you just get 50 Rabbonim to ban such a thing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

as long as it's cholov yisroel it's OK.

 

I THINK WE GOT IT ALL WRONG. SHE WAN'T COMPLAINING ABOUT THE MOTHER NURISNG IN A PUBLIC PLACE. RE-READ WAT SHE WROTE. SHE WAS BLOWN AWAY BY ALL THE "BRAZEN NOSHING AND YNETAING GOING ON". YOU SEE, SHE ONLY GOES OUT A LITTLE BIT, FOR A TREAT. SHE IS A STAY AT HOME, MOM WHO HS NO RELIGOUS AFFILIATION TO CHASSIDUS OR A A YESHIVA- SHE MUST BELONG TO THE PROGRESSIVE SYNAGOGUE OF BORO PARK (REFORM). THAT IS WHAT THE MUSSAR IS. "HOW DARE FRUM PEOPLE ENJOY EATING IN RESTUARANTS AND TALKING OUT LOUD, WHEN THEY SHOULD ALL BE AT HOME WITH THEIR KIDS, LIKE ME. IF MY BABAY NEEDED TO BE FED, I WOULD RUN LIKE THE DICKENS TO GET HOME TO NURSE HER BECAUSE OTHERWISE 'STRANGERS' WILL SEE WHAT I',M DOIING, AND WHAT I'M DOING IS SO UNNATURAL THAT OTHER PEOPLE WILL LABEL ME AS A MILITANT!


BTW My wife also nursed our children "in public" and my eldest is 24!- it isn't "nowadays" In fact i remember litening to an interview with Pablo Picasso, who said his mother nursed his sibling in King Jaun Carlos' (Spain) presence over 60 years ago! the Sad fact is the formula manufacturers in cahoots with some pediatricians told mothers that Hashem's gift of milk was not at nutricious or as healthy as the formula. Tell that to someone with a soy allergy.

 

If a bottle-fed baby can have her dinner in public, why shouldn't a breastfed baby have the same right?

 

I do not understand, what is the boosha, of nursing publicly in a discreet manner?

 

Although breast milk is pareve, it is forbidden to be on a table with meat for fear of mar'as ayin.

I think we should use Chaptzem's Ban-O-Matic to ban public breastfeeding.

 

Vos is shlecht?
A pizza shop isn't a frum newspaper or woman's magazine so woman should still allowed to appear in public. Whats wrong with nursing a baby? Are you going to be upset the next time a pregnant mother goes to pizza shop too? As long as she acts with proper tznius, feeding a newborn should be no different than anyone else

 

Pretty gross. Would someone do, you know what, under a blanket and say if nobody can see it is ok? Pleaaaase there are alot of young teenage boys and grown married men and even women who may find it gross in the middle of their meal to be exposed to this.
There is noooooooooooooooo reason to do this in any place if anyone is there in your own home or in a public place. For some this may lead to unkosher thoughts. This day an age everyone seems to be doing anything wherever whenever with whomever they want. When we are exposed to something the next time it does not shock us anymore.
Who knows what the world will look like in 50yrs from now.
I have to say we do live in a very interesting, loose, shocking world.

 

I'm shocked that she was eating fries and nursing a baby !! Can't she wait till the kid becomes 10 years old so he/she can develop type 2 diabetes just like any other heimishe kid in boro park or flatbush.

 

There is actually some type of NYC law that any store must provide a place for mothers to nurse. Thhe law applies for Chassidish as well as Litvish. The store I work in, Natan Borlams does abide.

While it is a natural thing I wonder how tzenia it was and if there were alternatives. I was not in the pizza store but I can imagine it should have been handled differently.

 

Woman that breastfeed are certainly doing the right thing.
And, there is no reason for women to be stuck at home due to the fact that they are nursing.
There are some other alternatives to the behavior described in the letter.

1)women can pull over to the back corner of the restaurant, with their backs facing the customers...and no one will even notice.
2) women can feed their baby in the dressing room of a womens clothing store. Most stores will gladly allow this.

with the two above options everyone is happy and doing the right thing.
the baby gets its food, and the mother remains modest.
There is a way to do things.The torah requests women to always remain modest and certainly not to call attention to oneself. The manner this woman was acting in is the true problem.
as for the editor and other customers, we should all learn to mind our own business and look into our own plates. other wise we also classify as a yenta.

 

Malach HaMovies said...
I'm shocked that she was eating fries and nursing a baby !!

Well, What should she eat? Salads might sound better but that is not good for some nursing babies, it makes them gassy.

 

It sounds like youre all shikkur!!! m,shenechnes adar. btw the guy with the 1st comment deserves his mouth bleached or his rear end tanned

 

From all the comments ( I didn't count how many of each pro or con) it looks like it's a 50/50 pro or con. I am pro nursing a baby when the baby is hungry, if possible in a private place, if not, then discreetly covered up and if anyone stares they are the ones at fault NOT the mother. I am not pro a bunch of women talking too loudly in any public place because that is not proper behavior, but, I am not against a group of friends eating together quietly and feeding their babies discreetly in a pizza shop. MEN DON'T STARE - IT ISN'T RIGHT! Does this end the argument?

 

Oh the humanity!

I think one thing is pretty clear - the baby needs the food a lot more than your typical BP grubbe tuches with eager eyes for what other people are doing wrong.

 

YOU are 100% right, the level of Tznius is much to low among us Boro Parkers, etc. WE MUST PAY MORE ATTENTION TO THE ISSUE OF TZNIUS.

I wish the schools would START teaching our girls what Tznius is, explain it in a loving way so it will enter our minds and hearts.

we have reached such a low in Tznius maybe that's why MOSHIACH is not here yet!!!

Make fun if you want to, I dont care, the EMES will show up when MOSHIACH arrives in the near future.

What a shame that Klall Yisroel are not sensitive to the Tznius issues. So many teens walk around with cell phones in public "talking" and "texting" NIVUL PEH etc. with no shame where is all this coming from? (the parents, friends, or the low level of today's Chinuch etc.)

Do we care who our kids be-friend ??? when a teen age daughter, a Bas Yisroel says, I am going to do my homework with... is she really going there or is she going to meet up with the Yatzer Hora? what happens to our dear kinderlech when they go babysitting, who are they on the phone with, what kind of D V D's Internet etc. are they watching???

My Rav told us a sad story of a Heimisha girl who went babysitting and had a boy over, this is what happened: the people went to a wedding, she asked them what time are you going to be home, 11:30 - 12:00 fine she replied with a nice big smile, the husband felt something fishy with her tone of voice, they got into the car drove around the block parked the car across the street, 20 minutes later they see a Yeshiva boy (hat and white shirt...) entering their home, they waited about 15 minutes, quietly walked in on them and caught them on the couch, not just sitting and talking, (use your imagination) where is the Chinuch today!!! then you wonder why a mother in 13 ave pizza shop has no SHAME...in public, while munching on her lunch, lunch???

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING THIS TO OUR ATTENTION, MAY HASHEM BLESS YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WITH A RUACH OF KEDUSHA, LOTS OF NUCHAS.

 

Anon 5:30,

The main thing is that he was wearing a white shirt and a black hat (which is the most important part of chardei judaism). Listen the boy could have worn a blue shirt or rachmona litzlan , hashem yishmor could have been wearing jeans and sandals.

He could always do teshuva re: the schmooching with his Bais Yakkov girlfriend.The main thing is not to change his dress. Don't forget. Externals in our community is everything.

 

If Hashem wanted us to be fed from bottles, He wouldn't have given women the ability to nurse children. If the writer considers nurisng to be disgusting, what does she consider all the other things Hashem created our bodies to do?

Comment Credit ---This article posted by Anonymous : March 04, 2008 1:14 PM
---------------------------------
Hashem created us with out clothing , maybe we should dance around the streets in the nude.
Hashem created us with Hair nails , who are we to go shave and cut our nails.

 

lol YEA RIGHT A RAV TOLD YOU ABOUT A BAIS YAAKOV GIRL MAKING OUT ON THE COACH STOP THE BS

 

Are you sure it wasn't a bais medrash on 13th Avenue?

 

When a baby has to eat you feed him/her... i don't see why tznius should be a factor, it's not like she wasn't pole dancing.

Maybe this was the pole dancing station on 13th?!

 

Maybe the mother had a "Dicci" tattoo on her?

 

quietly walked in on them and caught them on the couch, not just sitting and talking, (use your imagination) where is the Chinuch today!!! then you wonder why a mother in 13 ave pizza shop has no SHAME...in public, while munching on her lunch, lunch???
You're either telling me that 1)the boy and girl were being michanech each other 2) the couple enjoyed it 3) the woman in the pizza shop was telling a story that happened 10 months ago in someone's house

 

"BTW My wife also nursed our children "in public" and my eldest is 24!"

Interesting. Can't say I've ever seen a 24 year old nursing in public.

 

we must get all the Rabbonim involved, this can ruin the future of Klal Yisroel. A Ban must be made against nursing in pizza stores.

 

1)I thought typical Boro Park was chassidish
2)There were a handfull of men before or after
3)I think there should be a vaad hatznius available 24/7 like hatzoloh for one to call when something like this happens.They would storm the place in minutes with tear gas.

 

Does anyone ever make an issue re Boro Park women wearing mini skirts
or does only the top half count

 

Everyone is missing the main point. The original poster said

"Never in a thousand years would I even imagine someone doing this"

Forget about the nursing in public. This woman is over one thousand years old! No wonder she's neither chassidish or Litvish. She was born before Chasidism or Litvishism was invented!

 

I wonder what this Boro Park mom looks like. Last time I was there most looked like harlots. I'm not stroking all BP with a wide brush, only the 98% who give the other 2% a bad name.

 

Nursing under wraps is not half as bad as short skirts, tight tops eyecatching shoes and sheitels, makeup to entice with etc. All Jewish women where ever they are,must clean up their tznius act.

 

Quote fro the sefer "Oz Vehadar Levusha" Page 366.

"Just nursing a baby, whilst a woman is well covered, in a place where she can easily be seen by men who are not close family, is far from tznius'dik conduct. Therefore, in a train or aircraft the least noticeable way of sitting should be chosen and in a car she should sit at the back. Part of the general break-down of the innate feelings of true modesty itself in the ease with which women feed in places where they can easily be seen by men."

 

Once, on a flight to Israel, i totally saw the whole thing whilst the lady pulled her shirt up to nurse the baby. i know its rough on a plane, but they have those free blankets, no?
(im a guy btw)

 

She is neither chassidish nor litvish. She must be a Yekke! No wonder she got alll bothered by the sight of a woman breastfeeding. :-)

 

Once, on a flight to Israel, i totally saw the whole thing whilst the lady pulled her shirt up to nurse the baby. i know its rough on a plane, but they have those free blankets, no?
(im a guy btw)

We all know you're a guy ("i totally saw the whole thing"). You need to see more "whole things"

 

I think women should be banned altogether. The number 1 cause of all divorces is marriage. Just my 1 1/2 cents.

 

Its completely wrong for a woman to be nursing in public. who knows what improper thoughts go through a mans head when he sees a woman nursing. and dont say "well the men shouldnt look.." HE CANT HELP IT- its a mans biggest yetzer hara
We ladies have to improve in tznius so that the men will have an easier time overcoming this huge yetzer hara.

 

"we must get all the Rabbonim involved, this can ruin the future of Klal Yisroel. A Ban must be made against nursing in pizza stores."

That's not a strong enough geder! A ban should be made against all pizza stores! Now that we have kosher frozen pizza in supermarkets, no one needs to eat pizza in a pizza store. If the mother had only eaten pizza at home, this would never have happened.
On second thought, maybe all pizza should be banned too...

 

as the arizal states, that the dor before moshiach, the one we are in right now, some will be the neshomes of dor hamabil and they will act the same like they have ....
so anyone that has an argument agains modesty while breast feeding specially in public knows where they are from thats why they don't understand whats wrong.

 

...I was completely blown away by what I had witnessed. Right there in this busy pizza shop...was a woman sitting with her friends and nursing her baby while noshing on some fries. I craned my neck to make sure that what I thought I was seeing was indeed happening. There was no mistaking it, she was nursing her baby right in the open for all to see...Never in a thousand years would I even imagine someone doing this. I don't know, I'm just blown away.

Lady (that is, if you're really a "lady"), public breastfeeding is a major debate in western society. It's not 100% approved of (and I can't speak for the halachic angle on it, but it's definitely not unheard of. I've seen it in parks, on trains on planes. I've even had friends and colleagues of mine do it while speaking with me. Like other mature adults, I've learned not to "crane my neck". Google "public breastfeeding" for a clue. Also, not everybody who eats in a BP pizzeria should have to be subject to your version of what's OK.

 

Though I do not think it is a terrible thing for a woman to nurse in public, sometimes you just have to, it could be done in a more tzniusdik way.

Many women carry a large, thin, blanket-type object which they drape over the shoulder, and even over the baby. This way no one sees anything.

Oh, sure, if you have half a brain you know what she is doing, but, part of tznius behavior is on us, the men, to act appropriately AND NOT LOOK!

You notice a women with the blanket on her shoulder, you look away!

Yes, it is best if she is lucky enough to find a table in the back where she can face the wall.

Yes, it is best if the establishment offers a special area for women only, where the men know to stay out of.

It certainly would be nice if mothers would time their outings better, so they do not need to nurse in public, for I agree that even with the blankets, as long as people KNOW what is going on there is a tznius problem, but today, with the schedules our wives need to keep, this is unfair to expect.

You want them to not feed their babies in public, take the following errands and do them yourselves... she will then have more time to arrange her schedule:
Pick up your own dry cleaning
Pick up those little grocery orders she is running around to get.
Stop at the store and YOU get the diapers.
You do the laundry.
You strip the beds and wash the linens.
You .... are you getting the hint?

Hey, I am a guy. I KNOW we do not do enough, and we expect our wonderful wives to do way too much.
Let's try to be a bit more understanding of them, when they want to take an hour off during the day and hang out with friends over lunch.

And, PLEEEZE don't tell them to make our babies eat in gross bathroom! You would not eat there, neither should the babies.

But, there are some women, who just seem to nurse a bit too exposed.

There are some who seem to forget there are others in the building.

Maybe if the restaurant purchased a couple of those blankets, and when they see on of those women nurse "wide open", just walk over and give them the blanket ... maybe they will get the message.

But, there are some who actually seem to "enjoy" being seen nursing. This group seems to be a growing group. They are into this. SO, JUST DON'T LOOK!

 

Oh please.Why dont you just grow up.If a baby needs to eat and you are out in public,theres nothing wrong with whipping them out and nursing. The baby cant wait and its very painful for a nursing mother to wait. She becomes engorged and could lead to infection. Grow up and mind your own business.

 

This topic is the oldest and what everyone pretends to not realize that even though its such a natural and beautiful thing, 1/2 tha population are males and even though its taboo to enjoy seeing a mother nursing, it is what it is.
When you are a bochur and the closest thing to that you can see is in a Sears catalogue it is quite attractive.
It doesn't help when the young mother is dressed like a (fill in the blank).
Be realistic and try walking over to S&W or another ladies store and stop pretending like its pristine and pure.Thats the motto of natural nudists!

 

I'm not even a religious guy, and I think it's completely anti-tznius. A woman simply shouldn't bear her breasts in public!

 

Quoting previous poster:
"I'm not even a religious guy, and I think it's completely anti-tznius. A woman simply shouldn't bear her breasts in public!"

I agree completely, a woman shouldn't bear her breasts in public; she should leave them at home. And if she can't leave them at home, she should stay home.

Everyone knows that breasts aren't supposed to be used for nursing babies. If they were, it would've been mentioned in the Torah. I mean, if it were so important, you would've read about at least one of the Avos being nursed as a child--maybe until age three or something.

 

You're all missing the point. No one should bring outside milk into a kosher pizza ship.

 

i cannot believe yiddishe neshamas are talking in such a prosteh way. It's nauseous.

 

I NURSE IN PUBLIC AND I TRY TO COVER MYSELG GOOD. IF YOUR BABY CRIES THEN U GIVE.

 

@March 10, 2008 11:46 AM

Doesn't it talk about how all the mothers brought their babies to Sarah to be nursed to see if she had really given birth?

Also, Shmuel was only brought to Eyli at age 2 because Chana had to nurse him for 2 years.

 

In reply to 3/14 1:48 PM:

I meant my comment in a sarcastic way, as a reply to those who seem to think breastfeeding is immodest. You are absolutely correct that Sara Imainu nursed the babies of the princes who attended Yitzhok Avinu's weaning party (according to Rashi this was when he was 3). It's also true that Shmuel HaNavi was nursed until age 2--perhaps he was weaned early because he had to serve in the Mishkan.

If a mother is trying to nurse discreetly in public (and I've never seen a frum women who wasn't), then those who are easily offended probably shouldn't look too closely. This surely is a better choice than the mother attempting to nurse in a public bathroom (especially if she has another child/ children) or forcing mothers to stay inside their homes until their babies are old enough to eat other foods.

I would hope that even kosher restaurants would allow formula bottles for babies; in this case they should certainly allow breastfeeding.

 

you kno, hashem makes pple not able to talk at first...if he wanted you to talk, he would've made you that way to begin with!

SHUT UP!

mind ur own business when ur in the pizza shop, marry men with clean minds so they dont pervert breastfeeding into something innapropriate, and if u are so religious that other pple's personal choices drive you to "freak out", drink some coffee, watch a good movie, and think abt seeing a shrink.