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Friday, September 07, 2007

Kiryas Joel vandals attack car because of how woman dresses
















A native of this Satmar Hasidic village, Toby Greenberg is not unfamiliar with the strict mores of her ultra-Orthodox community.

But she never expected to be persecuted for choosing to dress slightly differently.

Unlike most Kiryas Joel women, who wear long, dark dresses or skirts and simple blouses in public, Greenberg, 25, wears colorful shirts, wigs and denim skirts.

And that, in the eyes of a clandestine group of inquisitors, constitutes immoral behavior.

Greenberg and her husband, Yoel, awoke Tuesday morning to find the tires of their silver Chevy Impala slashed and white oil-based paint splashed on their new, black Mazda CX-7.

Written in white paint on the Mazda were Hebrew words that Greenberg interpreted in English as "get out" and "defiled person."

State police Sgt. Warner Hein said troopers are treating the incident as criminal mischief and are interviewing residents for potential leads.

Troopers are also investigating another incident that occurred about a month ago, in which fliers slandering Greenberg were thrown on Kiryas Joel's streets.

Just before this week's vandalism, Greenberg and her husband received several letters — one was hand-delivered by a Hasidic man.

The man told them that he and 24 other men have decided that the couple should leave Kiryas Joel immediately.

"He had a lot of guts coming up here in person," Yoel said.

Kiryas Joel, a village in the Town of Monroe, is populated by about 20,000 observant Satmar Hasidic Jews.

Kiryas Joel residents hold fast to strict customs considered by many other Hasidim as outdated or archaic.

The Greenbergs said they do not believe that their persecutors are representative of Kiryas Joel, but are rather a fringe group of radicals who have taken it upon themselves to make an example of them.

The couple at first suspected the attacks to be the work of Vaad Hatznius, the equivalent of a morality police group in the village.

But when Toby's family confronted members of the group, they denied responsibility for the acts, she said.

Still, Vaad Hatznius has been suspected of acting through other agents of the community to achieve its ends, she said.

Speaking with a reporter yesterday, Toby wore a bright pink Tommy Hilfiger long-sleeved shirt, a denim skirt with ruffles at the knees and a wig with a copper tint.

Yoel, who works in construction, stood by her, as their 1-year-old daughter, Zlaty, played.

The couple at first thought about ignoring the threats, but changed their minds after their cars were vandalized.

"I want these people arrested," Toby said.

"I want them to pay for my damaged property and to pay for what they are putting my family through."

Professor Sam Heilman, an expert in Hasidic culture at the City University of New York, said Toby Greenberg's plight is not unusual given Kiryas Joel's suspiciousness of change, no matter how slight.

"The whole image she is projecting with her clothing is that of someone who's at home in the modern world, and there are many who are afraid of that in Kiryas Joel," he said.
























An earlier warning to the woman


http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070907/NEWS/709070320

Comments:
She doesn't belong in Kiryas Yoel if she dresses like that. And for that matter you don't have to be Chassidish to not dress like that. Why do Jewish women wear shirts that say Tommy Hilfiger on them anyway? He's not Jewish. Why wear a shirt with someone's name on it? I think it's ridiculous.

 

It is hard to believe that
these people live in the
year 2007. There is little
differnce between these
Jewish terrorists and Iran
terrorists.

 

The first comment above is unbelievable. Some nut cases terrorize and vandalize a Jewish family, and he criticizes the victim???

Perhaps such a family would be happier in a different community, but now I hope they stay put and not give in to the resho'im who try to force their krum version of yiddishkeit on others.

The real test is how the leadership of KJ react. Every group has their nuts, but true Jewish leaders would do their best to control the wild members in their community.

 

gezel is worse

 

To anon 10:34 #2
and there is little difference between that zoineh and the shiksas of 2007

 

People have to respect the neighborhoods that they live in.

It's such pain to Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum to see what happened to his community since his passing.

Satmar Chasidim please awake! you were once the people who held the banner of yiddiskeit, but now some of you show such חילול השם.

If you want to be a שגץ do it somewhere else.

If you want to fight don't do it in public.

If you want to really have and follow a rebbe please do it with honesty and לש"ש and not to show\gain power. remember הכתר והכבוד לחי העולמים.

 

Doesn't someone have a picture of her? A picture would clarify to all, if she's over the boundary, and a risk to impressionable children in the area.

 

The only possible response to this is to condemn the terrible actions of the self-righteous "va'ad hatznius" or whoever they are. They are going against the Torah in so many ways. Truly disgusting.

 

Would everyone please grow up. If moshe rabeinu came to kiryas joel in his style of dress, they would probably vandalize his donkey because they wouldnt approve of his dress code. People have to stop concentrating so much on how other people dress. If G-d judged you that strictly, you would all be dead and in hell. Do you think by vandalizing someones car, they will see things your way? quite the opposite. They will get turned off completely. The only answer is to be tolerant. Not everyone is the same. Everyone shouldnt have to dress the same. Dress changes from generation to generation but the torah is around and the same always. If someone follows it, they are a good jew and it doesnt matter if they wear tommy hilfiger and denim.

 

YOU GO GIRL

And for the person who said
"People have to respect the neighborhoods that they live in", we live in America under American laws that allow personal freedoms in public,

And for the person who stated "a risk to impressionable children in the area" as long as she is not NUDE she does not pose a risk to impressionable children in the area.

 

Where is her husband on all this? Why does she want to live in KY in the first place?

 

For all those who say that the Satmar Rebbe (r' Yoel) would not be happy about the vandalism;

Sorry to pop your bubble - but he would be thrilled! This is what Satmar is. Satmar is violence! This is all they know.

The previous Rebbes of Satmar would be very happy to see their followers going in the true Satmar path of hitting and fighting.

All this aside she obviously doesn't want to conform to regular Satmar so I think she should move out, find a different Chassidus. There are a few non-fighting Chassidus's left to join.

 

If these people from Kiryas Yoel were really that Frum, they wouldn't know what she is wearing. If they are soo Frum they shouldn't be looking at her. Good for her!!

 

I'm sorry, but your'e wrong ! She can dress any way she wants, on her own "Achrayis". However, when people move out of the city, to a place like Monroe, it was to get away from people like that. She can do what she wants, but don't do it there !

 

It's an awfully sad statement anytime when Jews turn on Jews, but in chodesh Elul when we should be focused on our "bain adam l'chaveiro" people seem to think THEY are sitting in the "kisai hakavod" and are in a position to pass judgement on Hashem's behalf. The truth is, although those who vandalized the Greenberger's car are totally out-of-line, I also believe the Greenbergers should move to a more tolerant community for the sake of one-year-old Zlatty, who will soon become school-age Zlatty, and will bear the brunt of the community's intolerance.

 

Probably they grew up there, but, got influenced by "modern" ways. I think they should move to a place they'll better fit in with. Maybe her husband doesn't even realize theway his wife dresses doesn't fit in. Not only should women hear shmuessen on dress codes, but, men have to be made aware of how their wives and daughters should dress.Does she also "chas v'sholom" drive a car?

 

WHOEVER DID THIS TO THIS COUPLE SHOULD BE PUNISHED.
ON THE OTHER HAND I KNOW THIS GIRL PERSONALLY SHE ALWAYS WANTED TO BE DIFFERENT. SHE COMES FROM A REAL MODEST NICE HOME. HER SISTERS AND BROTHERS LOOK LIKE EVERY BODY ELSE IN THE COMUNITY. BEFORE SHE WAS MARRIED SHE WOULD START UP WITH ALL THE BOYS. SHE IS A BIG FLIRT. WHEN SHE GOT MARRIED EVERYONE WAS RELIEVED.

I SAW HER RECENTLY AND SHE WAS WEARING AN EXTREMELY TIGHT PROVOCATIVE OUTFIT IN A LOCAL GROCERY STORE.
SHE REALLY SHOULD NOT LIVE IN SUCH A FRUM COMUNITY.
MOST SHIKSAS THAT COME TO KIRYAS YOEL DRESS MODESTLY OUT OF RESPECT FOR THE PEOPLE OF THIS HIGHLY MODEST COMUNITY.
WHY DOES SHE WANT TO LIVE IN K.J.?
SHE LOVES TO HURT HER PARENTS, IN LAWS AND BE STARED AT. SHE LOVES THE ATTENTION SHE IS GETTING.

I STILL CONDEMN THE PEOPLE WHO DID THIS.

FOR THE PEOPLE WHO SAY THAT IT IS 2007. DON'T YOU REALIZE THAT SOME PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE IN MODEST DRESSING?

 

Now you understand why I won't do business with frum jews. The only erliche customers I have are the goyim, they never stiff you.
I would rather they dressed stylish and paid their bills rather than wearing shtreimlich and stiffing you.
What would Joel Teitelbabum say about all his chasidim that screw people?

 

She can dress the way she wants.It is hard to believe that
these people live in the
year 2007.Perhaps such a family would be happier in a different community, but now I hope they stay put and not give in to the resho'im heck with satmar who try to force their wako version of Judaism on others.

 

To me the question is not whether it is proper to shame or condemn a person in such a manner. Rather, the question is, is it appropriate to disrespect the norms and values of a community. No one is forcing this woman to live in Kiryas Yoel. However, if she so chooses she needs to be respectful of their values.

 

If this village has a public
school, has public garbage
collection etc. This woman can
walk around as she feels.
I hope this family finds the
terrorists that are behaind this
action.
Anyone can live where they want
in this nation.

 

IF YOU DON'T LIVE IN THIS COMUNITY YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND.
NOBODY FORCES ANYBODY TO DO ANYTHING OR WEAR ANYTHING. BUT IN ORDER TO FIT IN, YOU WANT TO LOOK AND DRESS LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.
WHY WOULD A WOMAN WANT TO LIVE IN A PLACE WHERE SHE IS AN OUTCAST.
AND WHY WOULD SHE FIGHT HER OWN PARENTS SIBLINGS AND IN LAWS.
THERE ARE MANY BOYS AND GIRLS THAT LEAVE TO COMUNITIES WHERE THEY FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE.
TO DRESS THE WAY SHE DOES, IS LIKE GOING TO A SHUL OR A MOSQUE WITH A BIKINI.
ABOUT DOING BUSINESS WITH ORTHODOX JEWS, NOBODY IS MORE HONEST THAN THEY ARE. THEY DO NOT STEAL AND THEY DO NOT KILL.
THE PEOPLE OF KIRYAS JOEL ARE LAW ABIDING CITIZENS. THEY TRY THEIR UTMOST TO NOT MAKE A CHILEL HASHEM.
THIS ACT WAS DONE BY ONE OR TWO UNSTABLE BOYS AND IS A VERY UNUSUAL THING TO HAPPEN IN THIS COMUNITY.

 

it doesnt matter how strict the community is, or what the rules are.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE for commiting CRIMES of this nature, it is an out and out AVEIRAH, a CRIME and a felony against the law. preriod. nothing to discuss.
Any rav or rebbe that condones this type of behavior is not a real rav or rebbe.

 

OH MY G-D.... SHE WEARES A TANED SHAITEL.. CHAPTZEM, HOW CAN YOU POST SUCH EXPLICIT DETAILS? SOME FRIMME MINORS MAY READ THIS, AND BECOME IRREVERSABLY CORRUPTED.

 

We had a business in Williamsburg and a branch in the East Side in Manhattan.
The people in Williamsburg always paid their bills (maybe a little bit late.).
The people in the East side tried every trick to avoid paying their bills. They took us to court for anything that they would think they could get away with.
In williamsburg we dealt with the finest orthodox customers and we didn't need a guard at the door. If we would forget to bill a customer they would remind us.
In manhattan we dealt with all kind of gentiles and jews (not orthodox) and we needed a guard at the door. If not we would be robbed.
Sorry, when was the last time an orthodox jew killed someone. You cannot say the same with non orthodox jews.

 

GO TOBY GO.

 

I think that those who did this act of terror to her are jelous of her husband and I don't have to spell it out, becuase you know what I mean.

 

GO ZOINEH GO
GO SLUT GO
BEST WISHES, THE OUTSIDERS….

 

AS WE ALL KNOW THE SATMAE RABBE ZT'L BUILT THIS TOWN FOR THE ONLY REASON TO KEEP OUT FROM THE SHMUTZY CITY AND FOR HER TO COME IN THIS TOWN LIKE TAHET WHERE HE PUT SOME MUTCH SWEAT AND WORK TO MAKE A HOLY TOWN IM YOU DONT BELONG HERE MOVE HARLEM

 

wow what discusting pp; by doing that i promise you it will not make her become better! and besides i would never want to live in a place where people have no tolerance to the extent that they can do such a horriable thing she may be doing something wrong but what they did was worng to so what did they gain?

 

”wow what discusting pp; by doing that i promise you it will not make her become better!”
Hello… she is a despicable slut aiming to get the attention from young boys and girls to her……(vomit!...) and you have sympathy with this rotten soul? You want to make her better, think about the other 25,000 KJ citizens who are forced to be exposed to her … ough!.. ooch!...vomit!…

“and besides i would never want to live in a place where people have no tolerance to the extent that they can do such a horriable thing”
Oh, at least we can agree on one thing that these people cannot tolerate pritzus and get so outraged to the extent that they did this “horrible thing” on the other hand no one disputes that the car looked horrible…lol.

“she may be doing something wrong but what they did was worng to so what did they gain?”
Do you consider pritzus “something wrong”? What do you make of Chazal that the first churban B”HM happened only because Jewish girls were dressed in a way to get the attention of boys? (Yes the 2nd churban was because of sinas CHINUM, unlike here where they hate this slut for sound torah reasons)

 

And bt"w anon 10:28
Your poor spelling indicates that you are just another Chasidic dropout with a guilty conches… nice try!

 

she's an idiot who wants some attention so she doesnt leave that place. there are plenty of other communities that dont give a hoot about what you wear.and to think that she doesnt mind her name being used...

 

And bt"w anon 10:28
Your poor spelling indicates that you are just another Chasidic dropout with a guilty conches… nice try!

Comment Credit ---This article posted by Anonymous : September 11, 2007 2:18 PM


You meant to spell guilty conscience

 

and btw anon 2:18pm.......
please tell me that "conches" was intentionsl!!

 

True, car was vandalized, but why doesn't anybody mention that Chazal and Shulchan Oruch say that a moser - ain loi chaylek l'oilum habbuh! IS MESIRAH ACCEPTABLE NOWADAYS?

 

I once heard of a story of the Satmer Rebbe Zt"l here he heard a yid was in court against another yid and he called him over immediately to his house and told him to immediately call his lawyer that as of this second, he is out!He tried to postpone, but he told him to do it now and have a Beis Din immediately in his house!

Also, this same Satmer Chosid told me that a judge asked him that why when Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum was living that no one from the kehilla was in court as far as she checked out!? When will we stop sinking?

 

THIS POST IS VERY VAUABLE, THAT I AM GOING TO COPY AND PASTE:

We had a business in Williamsburg and a branch in the East Side in Manhattan.
The people in Williamsburg always paid their bills (maybe a little bit late.).
The people in the East side tried every trick to avoid paying their bills. They took us to court for anything that they would think they could get away with.
In williamsburg we dealt with the finest orthodox customers and we didn't need a guard at the door. If we would forget to bill a customer they would remind us.
In manhattan we dealt with all kind of gentiles and jews (not orthodox) and we needed a guard at the door. If not we would be robbed.
Sorry, when was the last time an orthodox jew killed someone. You cannot say the same with non orthodox jews.

THANKS FOR THIS CHIZUK...SOMETHING WHICH HELOS ANSWER A QUESTION I HAD FOR A LONG TIME

 

if you love this countries freedom of religion so much you should honor our freedom of speech as well

 

These insidous chants of mesirah just display foolishness and am aratzus. Mesirah acc. to halacha, not mikveh talk, is only when the punishment fits the crime. To get your money back from a crook you can use governmental intervention. To protect your life, believe it or not, you can MASSER.

 

And you forgot to add that according to your interpretation, damaging a car and shameful pashkevilin is defined in sh"u as murder...
What a ta"ch!!!...

 

what about loshon harah?? you all think youre frum jews? think again because i never so people so low. a lady dressing however she does is not your freakin problem. theres nothing wrong with denim skirts and tshirts. look out into the world and see pp and dont call someone wearing a denim skirt a slut. because shes not. whatever the reason is she lives in kj is not mine but if you have a problem with that why wouldnt you go in private and ask her husband to tell her to dress differently. you think its normal that youre writing all this loshon harah? your aveira is probably worse then hers. actually for sure it is . i still dont see what her aveira is anyways but everyone just mind your own business and watch your mouths and thats whats gonna bring the geula not you blabbing about how everyones wrong and leave everyone alone and worry about yourself

 

there are around world and in our own backyards or even in own houses.
does anyone belong there.
with two brothers fighting with hands and feet what is that called
this world is here for a test.
do you love your kids just keep them way. there is ways to talk
and act. are they bothering anyone? so what so they living around you. whats about non jewish
people

 

A friend just directed me to this site. I applaude many of you who had the "guts" to support the woman. However I find it odd that so few of you have the "guts" to say who YOU are and instead choose come through as annonymous,,,?

Debbie Morgenstern - Flatbush, Brooklyn

 

How ironic that a charedi group that has such serious problems with Israel and Zionism based on the injunction to behave under the laws of the nations that they live under (to say nothing of Israel being granted back solely by G-d Himself and not through the hand of man) should then see fit to go and break those laws when it suits them. The nation they are living under permits people to dress as they wish within the bounds of the common rules of the greater community, not the smaller. What she wears is her business.

What can they say? That their belief in what torah says is superior to the laws of the nation under which they live? Did that fly with Zionism in their eyes? No. No matter how morally strict they are, G-d is not building Israel at Kiryas Joel, and quite the opposite as long as they break the law where and when it suits them. Morality requires a certain amount of consistency and this convenient hypocrisy does them no honor, and it does G-d no honor.

 

It's amazing that a woman, in 21st century America, should be the target of such medieval, small-minded nonsense. There are plenty of other decent Jewish communities WITHOUT self-appointed male fashion police such as these bozos.
"Wardrobe" Judaism makes me sick!
Rosanne Soifer--Lower East Side

 

As an Orthodox Jew, I'll start by saying I both respect Toby's freedom of expression as well as the Satmar community's strong religious convictions. On a public level, Toby should, and can, wear whatever she pleases. The vandals responsible have no right to tell her to "get out." Slander is inexusable as well. Jews should be model examples of living in G-d's image from Torah. The supposedly pious Hasidim denigrate the already negative picture of Hasidic groups in America (with possibly the notable exception of the outgoing Chabad). Now, moving onto the level of the religious community in Kiryas Joel: Clearly Toby and her husband are feeling a sense, to an extent, of disociation that she would want to wear "immodest" clothing. Perhaps they are not ideal members of the Satmar community, but it does not mean they cannot live in Kiryas Joel, a public village in the United States of America. I am not going to call the Satmar "archaic" as some have before me, however I will say their actions are un-American. That is a fact no one can debate. The reality is an unfortunate one; living life by Torah is not what it used to be.

On that note, may we speedily receive the coming of Moshiach.

 

WE ARE FIGHTING A WAR ABROAD OVER FUNDEMENTALIST RELIGOUS BELIEFS. AND NOW WE ARE FIGHTING IT HERE IN AMERICA...THE WOLRD WILL ALWAYS BE AT WAR...BECAUSE OF RELIGION

 

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