Monday, October 01, 2007
A rebuttal letter from a Lubavitcher to a Lubavitcher
The following is an open letter that was sent in by a Lubavitcher, Chaim Rubin, the author of the Life-Of-Rubin Blog as a rebuttal to the open letter by a Lubavitcher Chossid.
An open letter to that alleged Lubavitcher.
I do not believe this was a lubavitcher who wrote this. If it was then he should be embarrassed. This is not who a chossid of the Rebbe speaks.
We are not beholden to OTHER PEOPLES RABANIM AND MINHAGIM. We are Lubavitchers. We have our own minhagim and our own ways.
Other groups may not like it but thats just tough. We don't force them to accept chabad rulings and chabad minhagim. To each thier own. The Gadolim have done nothing to reach out to Chabad for 20 years.
All Misnagdim and other Chassidim do is knock Lubavitch. Other groups have been copying Chabad concepts (baruch hashem) for close to 40 years. When everyone said mivtzoim was horrible, we did it. Now today groups like Aish are having Friday night campaigns to get women to light candles. Going on (what was once considered treif) college campuses, inventing the non frum to Holiday gathers, telling people about Moshiach, getting them to keep Shabbos. The Rebbe and Lubavitch brought "kiruv" to America and while I'm glad, B"H people are copying it its just another proof that people just hate what they do not understand. Once they "get it" they themselves embrace it.
I know hope just like with so many other things, people will see the briiliance of the Rebbe with regards to "bans" and how some things should be taken care of and prevented (like Tanius by S.B.Ha.) then just banning.
S.B .H.was very important to the Rebbe and that should make it important to every (real) Chossid.
This guy writing this letter has no Chossid left inside of him, if he is in fact a real Lubavcitcher.
By the way, this comment is coming from one of the biggest Anti Meshichists in Crown Heights. I often spoeak out against the Yellow flaggers and am honestly ashamed at what I see them do and say.
.... but for g-ds sake man, get it together, even I see your letter as a fraud. There is enough to be embarrassed about in our own community, but to make up ridiculous letters (again if you are, which I don't think you are) a real Lubavcitcher.
We have different hanhagahs and OUR CHABAD REBBEIM AND LEADERS have told us to go forward with this event. The Rebbe would have NEVER accepted these bans. It wasn't his way and it's not the right way for any person, but thats THEIR problem. We have our own leaders, we do what THEY say. If Chabad Rabanim would have agreed to this ban then we would have to listen, but otherwise we have no reason to listen to Gadolim who have for 40 years done nothing to reach out to us or show us any real respect.
The following is an open letter that was sent in by a Lubavitcher, Chaim Rubin, the author of the Life-Of-Rubin Blog as a rebuttal to the open letter by a Lubavitcher Chossid.
An open letter to that alleged Lubavitcher.
I do not believe this was a lubavitcher who wrote this. If it was then he should be embarrassed. This is not who a chossid of the Rebbe speaks.
We are not beholden to OTHER PEOPLES RABANIM AND MINHAGIM. We are Lubavitchers. We have our own minhagim and our own ways.
Other groups may not like it but thats just tough. We don't force them to accept chabad rulings and chabad minhagim. To each thier own. The Gadolim have done nothing to reach out to Chabad for 20 years.
All Misnagdim and other Chassidim do is knock Lubavitch. Other groups have been copying Chabad concepts (baruch hashem) for close to 40 years. When everyone said mivtzoim was horrible, we did it. Now today groups like Aish are having Friday night campaigns to get women to light candles. Going on (what was once considered treif) college campuses, inventing the non frum to Holiday gathers, telling people about Moshiach, getting them to keep Shabbos. The Rebbe and Lubavitch brought "kiruv" to America and while I'm glad, B"H people are copying it its just another proof that people just hate what they do not understand. Once they "get it" they themselves embrace it.
I know hope just like with so many other things, people will see the briiliance of the Rebbe with regards to "bans" and how some things should be taken care of and prevented (like Tanius by S.B.Ha.) then just banning.
S.B .H.was very important to the Rebbe and that should make it important to every (real) Chossid.
This guy writing this letter has no Chossid left inside of him, if he is in fact a real Lubavcitcher.
By the way, this comment is coming from one of the biggest Anti Meshichists in Crown Heights. I often spoeak out against the Yellow flaggers and am honestly ashamed at what I see them do and say.
.... but for g-ds sake man, get it together, even I see your letter as a fraud. There is enough to be embarrassed about in our own community, but to make up ridiculous letters (again if you are, which I don't think you are) a real Lubavcitcher.
We have different hanhagahs and OUR CHABAD REBBEIM AND LEADERS have told us to go forward with this event. The Rebbe would have NEVER accepted these bans. It wasn't his way and it's not the right way for any person, but thats THEIR problem. We have our own leaders, we do what THEY say. If Chabad Rabanim would have agreed to this ban then we would have to listen, but otherwise we have no reason to listen to Gadolim who have for 40 years done nothing to reach out to us or show us any real respect.
Comments:
KOL HAKOVOD. YOU ARE 100% RIGHT. WHEN A BELZER CHOSID HAS A SHAILA, HE DOES NOT ASK A LUBAVITCHER ROV WHAT TO DO. WE DID NOT ASK ANY OF THESE GEDOLIM IF WE SHOULD MAKE A SIMCHAS BAIS HASHOEVA, WE ARE NOT OBLIGATED TO FOLLOW THEIR DIRECTIVES. IT WOULD BE A CHUTZPA IF A BELZER CHOSID CAME TO THE S.B.H. THEN HE IS DISOBEYING HIS REBBE. THE REBBE VERY MUCH ENCOURAGED ANOSHIM, NOSHIM, V'TAF TO PARTICIPATE IN S.B.H. AND SO WE HAVE TO CARRY ON AND DO WHAT WAS DEAR TO OUR REBBE. IF THERE WERE 50,000 PEOPLE AT THIS EVENT [I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT THEY WERE ALL LUBAVITCHERS] THEN IT PROVES 1 OF 2 THINGS A. THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE DISOBEYING THEIR GEDOLIM OR B. IT ATTRACTED MANY NON FRUM JEWS, WHICH IS WHAT THE REBBE WANTED, TO BRING SIMCHAS YOM TOV TO EVERYONE.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by 
: October 01, 2007 9:30 AM
: October 01, 2007 9:30 AM
I agree. I was speaking recently with an older Lubavitcher rabbi and he told me about how it was when they first started doing kiruv in something like 1965. All the other communities attacked Lubavitch saying that if they take previously nonfrum Jews into their communities and schools, they would have nothing left after one generation. The chassidim got scared and went to the Rebbe, who promised it wouldn't happen. With the Rebbe's promise, they went forth with confidence that their children would not go off the derech as a result of their exposure to nonfrum Jews.
He also told me that the Rebbe said never to use the word baal teshuva. I person is frum or he isn't, and it would be terrible to bring someone in and then treat them as second class - they have to be treated equal. As much as other communities copy Chabad's kiruv, I wish they would also copy this attitude of accepting the baal teshuva, especially the Chassidim.
He also told me that the Rebbe said never to use the word baal teshuva. I person is frum or he isn't, and it would be terrible to bring someone in and then treat them as second class - they have to be treated equal. As much as other communities copy Chabad's kiruv, I wish they would also copy this attitude of accepting the baal teshuva, especially the Chassidim.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 10:11 AM
: October 01, 2007 10:11 AM
Well said!! Thank you Chaptzem for posting this, and enabling your readers to hear the words of a true Lubavitcher!
Thank you Chaim Rubin for taking the time to write what so many of us want to say!
Thank you Chaim Rubin for taking the time to write what so many of us want to say!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 10:26 AM
: October 01, 2007 10:26 AM
u r an apikoires of saying we dont have to listen to rabbanim everybody knows the row of kfar Chabad aggred when the isur for the concert of awraham fried came out resoning the all the rabbanim r giving out the isur.
so here to go n say we dont care is just the way to show BT of lubavitch r having a big effect on the rest of them
so here to go n say we dont care is just the way to show BT of lubavitch r having a big effect on the rest of them
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 11:45 AM
: October 01, 2007 11:45 AM
Please explain, is it because you have your own Rabbanim, or is it because other Rabbanim have shown you no respect, for 20 or is it 40 years?
Hypothetically, if these Rabanim were to have shown you respect for 20-40 years, would you have seen it as necessary to take their ban into account?
Do all REAL Lubavitchers really respect other people's minhagim? Or is it that all the disrespect comes from faux-Lubavitchers?
Hypothetically, if these Rabanim were to have shown you respect for 20-40 years, would you have seen it as necessary to take their ban into account?
Do all REAL Lubavitchers really respect other people's minhagim? Or is it that all the disrespect comes from faux-Lubavitchers?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 12:31 PM
: October 01, 2007 12:31 PM
Wow you pushat took the words out of my mouth. A big big yosher koach for writing this letter. May you continue to stand strong in the Rebbe's way and show everyone how true chassdim act.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 12:52 PM
: October 01, 2007 12:52 PM
im not a Lubavitcher,in fact i went through Ner Israel in Baltimore and i actually have to agree with these Lubabs. Everyone has their own minhagim. nobobys screaming at sephardim even though they are more lenient then us. lets just have peace btwn each other.
P.S. about the concert,if its separate seating, even chasidisher performers never had a problem ,whats happening all of a sudden?
P.S. about the concert,if its separate seating, even chasidisher performers never had a problem ,whats happening all of a sudden?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 1:39 PM
: October 01, 2007 1:39 PM
IS one allowed to blog (or type anything for that matter) on Chol Hamoed? (Yes I know this applies to me also).
I kno wthis is not an "ask a shaila" forum, I am just bringing the question to your attention.
I kno wthis is not an "ask a shaila" forum, I am just bringing the question to your attention.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 1:40 PM
: October 01, 2007 1:40 PM
ATT PLEASE EXPLAINE:
the cinisesim in ur coment gives away your unwillingness to see the issue as it really is.
the fact that they only critisized lubavitch showes that this is just another protest against chabad and not a genuine intrest in halocho and kavod hatorah.
point is in 20 years from now these same rabonim will be attending and promoting a S. B. H. in their own comunity
the cinisesim in ur coment gives away your unwillingness to see the issue as it really is.
the fact that they only critisized lubavitch showes that this is just another protest against chabad and not a genuine intrest in halocho and kavod hatorah.
point is in 20 years from now these same rabonim will be attending and promoting a S. B. H. in their own comunity
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 2:49 PM
: October 01, 2007 2:49 PM
A few comments.
I learned in my youth in a litveshe yeshiva. The Rosh hayeshiva was vehemently opposed to be mekarev non religious Jews. A lubavitcher shaliach came to his yeshiva to try and live in peace with him . He treated him very disrepectfully. He dispareged the Rebbe.
This was in the 60's.
Today it is accepted for everyone to claim that THEY started the baal teshuva movement!
The Rebbe was the true Godol because I remeber him saying about kiruv "Do it. Say that it is your idea bur do it!" Now that is real gadlus!
In the 70's The Rebbe was vehemmetly opposed to miyu Yehudi. The Aguda amongst others refused to do anything about it.
The Rebbe warned of the results of bringing goyim to Israel.
Today just see how many swastikas are painted all over Israel. Now everyone is screaming mihu Yehudi!
The Rebbe warned for years about giving back shtochim. The answer and this was told to me by my former Rosh Yeshiva "Torah was given in the midbar (dessert)". We do not need shtochim to learn. (I guess Moshe Rabeinu was not so smart as he begged to be let into Israel)
Another answer "We lived for 2000 years without the Golan we can live another 2000 years without the Golan"!
Now everyone is realizing the dangers of giving back shtochim.. What is the future of Kiryat Sefer the litvesh stronghold?
What is the future of the Kosel? Chevron? Neighbehoods in Yerushlayim?
Yes, nobody bothered all these years considered listening to what the Rebbe said.
Now let us hope it is not too late.
I learned in my youth in a litveshe yeshiva. The Rosh hayeshiva was vehemently opposed to be mekarev non religious Jews. A lubavitcher shaliach came to his yeshiva to try and live in peace with him . He treated him very disrepectfully. He dispareged the Rebbe.
This was in the 60's.
Today it is accepted for everyone to claim that THEY started the baal teshuva movement!
The Rebbe was the true Godol because I remeber him saying about kiruv "Do it. Say that it is your idea bur do it!" Now that is real gadlus!
In the 70's The Rebbe was vehemmetly opposed to miyu Yehudi. The Aguda amongst others refused to do anything about it.
The Rebbe warned of the results of bringing goyim to Israel.
Today just see how many swastikas are painted all over Israel. Now everyone is screaming mihu Yehudi!
The Rebbe warned for years about giving back shtochim. The answer and this was told to me by my former Rosh Yeshiva "Torah was given in the midbar (dessert)". We do not need shtochim to learn. (I guess Moshe Rabeinu was not so smart as he begged to be let into Israel)
Another answer "We lived for 2000 years without the Golan we can live another 2000 years without the Golan"!
Now everyone is realizing the dangers of giving back shtochim.. What is the future of Kiryat Sefer the litvesh stronghold?
What is the future of the Kosel? Chevron? Neighbehoods in Yerushlayim?
Yes, nobody bothered all these years considered listening to what the Rebbe said.
Now let us hope it is not too late.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 4:18 PM
: October 01, 2007 4:18 PM
To that liar who claims to be a lubavitcher.If you really care about what all the rabbonim say you shouldnt be using the internet,you hypocrite.As for the real lubavitchers out there keep up the good work in doing the rebbes work,making him happy and proud.Dont let anybody intimidate you,the rebbe showed us by example to do whats right not what gets the most public approval,we are not politicians we are the rebbes proud chassidim.As a wise chossid of the rebbe once told me,when he is asked by nonlubavitchers are you sure that which your doing is right,he replies in reality Im not but I have a rebbe who is very sure of whats right and wrong and thats all that matters to me as a chossid.May we all merit to grow in ahavas yisroel in this holy yom tov of succos.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 6:18 PM
: October 01, 2007 6:18 PM
I saw photos of the event organised by Lubavich I also saw photos of the event staged to protest because of the pritzus that might be caused by the event. The Dancing that was organised by Lubavich was COMPLEATLY sepetare men and women. The photos of the people who were protesting because they care about tzius was MIXED. Just showes that the protests were not about tzius just about hating Lubavich. A word of advice to all you Lubavich haters ,If you realy care about tznius and want to protest a (seperate seating ) event dont make your protest mixed. to see the photos for yourself go to http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=19192&lang=english
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 7:28 PM
: October 01, 2007 7:28 PM
I apologize for my horrible spelling errors.
To the person asking about the respect from and to other groups towards Chabad.
I dont think that if more respect was shown towards Chabad over the last 40 years we would then have to listen. Again, Chabad leaders tell us what to do and we follow them and our own Minhagim.
But I do think the lines of communication would be better today between the Chabad community and the Chareidi community in Israel. Maybe they would have a more unified front on **certain** things and then the Gadolim who issue kol korehs would respect that only THIER talmidim and followers should listen and other people should seek out the advice of their own torah leaders.
Instead we have people ganging up on Lubavitch for not adhering to the decrees of NON CHABAD rabanom.
These are holy rebbeim, but they are Chabad, and we follow Chabad customs and rabanim.
To the person asking about the respect from and to other groups towards Chabad.
I dont think that if more respect was shown towards Chabad over the last 40 years we would then have to listen. Again, Chabad leaders tell us what to do and we follow them and our own Minhagim.
But I do think the lines of communication would be better today between the Chabad community and the Chareidi community in Israel. Maybe they would have a more unified front on **certain** things and then the Gadolim who issue kol korehs would respect that only THIER talmidim and followers should listen and other people should seek out the advice of their own torah leaders.
Instead we have people ganging up on Lubavitch for not adhering to the decrees of NON CHABAD rabanom.
These are holy rebbeim, but they are Chabad, and we follow Chabad customs and rabanim.
dont worry in a few years all other chassidim will be having a sbh in thier comunities and just by the way must of the mixed and not tznuis ppl. were NOT lubavitures
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 01, 2007 9:53 PM
: October 01, 2007 9:53 PM
Mr. Rubin is dead wrong on many counts.
1. You are no one to declare or decide who is or who is not a chosid.
2. You are no one to declare or decide who is or who is not a Lubavitcher.
3. Lubavitch tries (usually unsuccessfully) to force its minhagim down everyone else's throats.
4. Your (and by and large Lubavitchers) world view that (quoting you) "All Misnagdim and other Chassidim do is knock Lubavitch is a perfect example of Lubavitchs world view. That it is Lubavitch against everyone else. And Lubavitch must run over everyone else to "win."
1. You are no one to declare or decide who is or who is not a chosid.
2. You are no one to declare or decide who is or who is not a Lubavitcher.
3. Lubavitch tries (usually unsuccessfully) to force its minhagim down everyone else's throats.
4. Your (and by and large Lubavitchers) world view that (quoting you) "All Misnagdim and other Chassidim do is knock Lubavitch is a perfect example of Lubavitchs world view. That it is Lubavitch against everyone else. And Lubavitch must run over everyone else to "win."
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 02, 2007 12:48 AM
: October 02, 2007 12:48 AM
All I know is this one thing:
If you're a tourist , business person, traveller , stam a Yid who's stuck in a remote town anywhere in the world and need a some kosher food , a shul or minyan, you'll find a Chabad to serve you.And that's good enough for me no matter what anybody says. Everything else is " aroisgevorfene plaplerei."
If you're a tourist , business person, traveller , stam a Yid who's stuck in a remote town anywhere in the world and need a some kosher food , a shul or minyan, you'll find a Chabad to serve you.And that's good enough for me no matter what anybody says. Everything else is " aroisgevorfene plaplerei."
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 02, 2007 5:33 AM
: October 02, 2007 5:33 AM
While your main point is a good one, your hyperbole and hypocrisy detract from that point.
Your basic line is that lubavitchers have to follow their own rebbeim, not others; what is good or right for others may not be for Lubavitchers. Then you go on to say that the ban "is not the right thing for any person". Doesn't that smack of hypocrisy?!!
Then, instead of keeping to your point, you sidetrack into this whole thing about misnagdim and other chasidim and how they never respected the Rebbe or lubavitchers. First of all, you are generalizing. Second, even if what you are saying there is true, it has nothing to do with your point. Let's say the "gedolim" assured some type of food because there was an admixture of tarfus, would you say "well, they never respected the Rebbe, so I am not bound by that". C'mon, that's just childish.
Make your point, stick to it and don't throw stones.
Your basic line is that lubavitchers have to follow their own rebbeim, not others; what is good or right for others may not be for Lubavitchers. Then you go on to say that the ban "is not the right thing for any person". Doesn't that smack of hypocrisy?!!
Then, instead of keeping to your point, you sidetrack into this whole thing about misnagdim and other chasidim and how they never respected the Rebbe or lubavitchers. First of all, you are generalizing. Second, even if what you are saying there is true, it has nothing to do with your point. Let's say the "gedolim" assured some type of food because there was an admixture of tarfus, would you say "well, they never respected the Rebbe, so I am not bound by that". C'mon, that's just childish.
Make your point, stick to it and don't throw stones.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 02, 2007 9:19 AM
: October 02, 2007 9:19 AM
For the last 40 years nobody reached to Chabad? Err,,, I do believe that a minority group is the one who would have to try to join or reach to the rest of Klal Yisroel, unless, of course, you believe that Chabad themselves need a lot of kiruv. I happen to agree with this point, but do you?
Setting oneself apart from the general community, and then expecting them to beg you to return on your terms isn't only obnoxious, it's plain silly. You consider yourselves big enough to make your own decisions, rules, rites, and even to proclaim your own Moshiach. Why then should ANYONE need to reach out to you, when it was you who walked out? Do you consider yourselves to be a lost child?
Take ANY large yeshiva in the world, Mir, Lakewood, Torah Vodaas, Slabodka, name it. Jews of all stripes, nuschaos, minhagim are to be found therein galore, from more modern families, to Ger, Bobov, Satmar, Sefardi, et.al. Lubavich is conscpicuously absent. It wasn't always so, you know. Mir in Europe, Slabodka back home, Chevron.. al had a good share of star disciples who were from Chabad, and nobody objected in the least. Why? Because THEY never set themselves apart to be better, more right that right, and never claimed that their Rebbe was IT - the ONLY correct path of chasidus, the ONLY way of Yiddishkeit, and the one who will bring the Geula. When you changed the equation, the results changed too. And it is YOU, who goes around saying - Misnagdim and the REST of Chassidim, having no part in this community. Anyone objecting to the slightest issue that you promote is automatically a Misnaged, immediately ending any need for a dialogue, since, obviously to you, the person doesn't deserve any consideration, having disagreed with your holy one. I have more respect for your Rebbe that you do. I actually listen to what he said, consider it, examine his views in light of other opinions, and think how it applies. You swallow his words whole, without the slightest thought. That isn't respect. It is worship, a very non-Jewish attitude.
So, for reaching out, do that now, before the door closes on you, as it had on other fringe groups throughout our long history, before Chabad - once a bright star in a constellation of Judaism will merit its own entry in Encyclopedia of Religions.
Setting oneself apart from the general community, and then expecting them to beg you to return on your terms isn't only obnoxious, it's plain silly. You consider yourselves big enough to make your own decisions, rules, rites, and even to proclaim your own Moshiach. Why then should ANYONE need to reach out to you, when it was you who walked out? Do you consider yourselves to be a lost child?
Take ANY large yeshiva in the world, Mir, Lakewood, Torah Vodaas, Slabodka, name it. Jews of all stripes, nuschaos, minhagim are to be found therein galore, from more modern families, to Ger, Bobov, Satmar, Sefardi, et.al. Lubavich is conscpicuously absent. It wasn't always so, you know. Mir in Europe, Slabodka back home, Chevron.. al had a good share of star disciples who were from Chabad, and nobody objected in the least. Why? Because THEY never set themselves apart to be better, more right that right, and never claimed that their Rebbe was IT - the ONLY correct path of chasidus, the ONLY way of Yiddishkeit, and the one who will bring the Geula. When you changed the equation, the results changed too. And it is YOU, who goes around saying - Misnagdim and the REST of Chassidim, having no part in this community. Anyone objecting to the slightest issue that you promote is automatically a Misnaged, immediately ending any need for a dialogue, since, obviously to you, the person doesn't deserve any consideration, having disagreed with your holy one. I have more respect for your Rebbe that you do. I actually listen to what he said, consider it, examine his views in light of other opinions, and think how it applies. You swallow his words whole, without the slightest thought. That isn't respect. It is worship, a very non-Jewish attitude.
So, for reaching out, do that now, before the door closes on you, as it had on other fringe groups throughout our long history, before Chabad - once a bright star in a constellation of Judaism will merit its own entry in Encyclopedia of Religions.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 02, 2007 2:53 PM
: October 02, 2007 2:53 PM
Dovid, well put!
And just to echo, if you don't want to be bound by the ban because your own rabanim don't obligate you to, then that's your right. But don't go off on a tangent and say that you're not following the ban because those who issued it never respected you. That shows your true colors.
If those rabbanim didn't want to do kiruv and show respect at the time maybe it was their right as well.
And maybe if REAL lubavitchers didn't have the same in-your-face attitude as the letter writer exhibits, maybe, just maybe those rabbanim might have had some respect for Lubavitch. Think about it. What came first, the chicken or the egg?
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And just to echo, if you don't want to be bound by the ban because your own rabanim don't obligate you to, then that's your right. But don't go off on a tangent and say that you're not following the ban because those who issued it never respected you. That shows your true colors.
If those rabbanim didn't want to do kiruv and show respect at the time maybe it was their right as well.
And maybe if REAL lubavitchers didn't have the same in-your-face attitude as the letter writer exhibits, maybe, just maybe those rabbanim might have had some respect for Lubavitch. Think about it. What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : October 02, 2007 7:21 PM
: October 02, 2007 7:21 PM
