Wednesday, June 04, 2008
Out of the Inbox - Schmoozing with the ladies in the office
Sent in by a Chaptzem reader
Hi! I don't know where to start. What I am writing about has been bothering me so much that I can't even think where to begin. I am a young married lady from a very chasidishe background. I was raised completely separate from boys and men all my life. I never even had anything with my uncles or boy cousins once we reached the age of eight or nine.
I graduated high school and went to work in an office with a bunch of chasidishe girls just like me. It was a great work atmosphere, both in ruchnies and in gashmies. Because besides for the owner and a computer guy, who always kept their distance and acted appropriately, the whole place was run by ladies and I felt very comfortable because of this and enjoyed going to work every day.
A little while ago, right before I got married, the owner sold his business to another guy. In the beginning he came in and was being oriented to the business. He was very friendly to everyone and always wanted to help. After he completely took over he started calling all the girls by their first names and would schmooze with them all the time, even though they didn't want to talk to him. He would offer to bring them coffee or water all the time even after repeatedly being refused. He would also ask the girls about their life and what kind of things they liked to do, this made everyone feel extremely uncomfortable. I thought he would stop this at least with me once I got married but it hasn't changed.
We are a large bunch of girls and have tried talking to him about his behavior as best we can without getting him angry, because he can fire us and easily replace us all in a minute. But either he is not getting it or he is enjoying himself and is ignoring us completely.
The situation is getting worse by the day as he keeps on getting more comfortable and is trying to get closer to everyone. The atmosphere has gotten so bad that everyone just walks around making fun of him and hating him all the time. I wish we could go back to the way the place was before he came. I wish I could feel comfortable at work again and not hate my job. Is there anyone that can help us with this situation and give us an idea how to change things for the better?
A frustrated soul.
Comments:
Do the right thing, quit!
Hashleich al Hashem yehovcha, v'hu yechalkeleka. (Put your faith in Hashem and he will feed you).
Your responsibility to try to earn a living does not require you to sacrifice your yiddishkeit.
Surely Hashem will provide you an opportunity to replace the income and you will be making a huge kiddush Hashem.
Hashleich al Hashem yehovcha, v'hu yechalkeleka. (Put your faith in Hashem and he will feed you).
Your responsibility to try to earn a living does not require you to sacrifice your yiddishkeit.
Surely Hashem will provide you an opportunity to replace the income and you will be making a huge kiddush Hashem.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by 
: June 04, 2008 9:26 AM
: June 04, 2008 9:26 AM
I think your 100 percent right my idea is to get together everyone and go to a choshave gadol and that person should speak to him
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 9:28 AM
: June 04, 2008 9:28 AM
Why would such an ehrliche woman be using the Intershmutz? That's her main problem.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 9:39 AM
: June 04, 2008 9:39 AM
Kudos to you for being honest and strong. Firstly, welcome to the world. Someone should have warned you. This issue is not something new.
Looks like you have it in numbers, if you would be on your own, things would be quiet different. So only in this case would I actually suggest you do something. Why don't you all write a signed letter, telling it as it is. He probably has no idea how the atmosphere could have been any different. "Men don't take hints". State the changes you need OPENLY and he'll respect you all in the end. You can even threaten that if these changes aren't happening you will all leave him. Bet you he won't put up with that!
Good luck!
Looks like you have it in numbers, if you would be on your own, things would be quiet different. So only in this case would I actually suggest you do something. Why don't you all write a signed letter, telling it as it is. He probably has no idea how the atmosphere could have been any different. "Men don't take hints". State the changes you need OPENLY and he'll respect you all in the end. You can even threaten that if these changes aren't happening you will all leave him. Bet you he won't put up with that!
Good luck!
I don't understand it if your such a erlicha women what are u doing on the net ecspecially blogging ?
Further where did u write this at work ? Why are u writing up letters and reading blogs at work time he should fire you for that.
So you will say that you have unfiltered net at home doesn't past for such a holy chushiva women like u
So be quite behave & chill out
P.s. If you have such a hard past it wouldn't be bad if you open up it says DAGA BLEV ISH YISOCHANU
Further where did u write this at work ? Why are u writing up letters and reading blogs at work time he should fire you for that.
So you will say that you have unfiltered net at home doesn't past for such a holy chushiva women like u
So be quite behave & chill out
P.s. If you have such a hard past it wouldn't be bad if you open up it says DAGA BLEV ISH YISOCHANU
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 10:01 AM
: June 04, 2008 10:01 AM
well, if he came on to any of you that might be sexual harassment. But if he offers you a coffee, he's hopefully just a nice and considerate guy.
What do you consider to be appropriate behavior for a man towards women? Ignoring their presence?
What do you consider to be appropriate behavior for a man towards women? Ignoring their presence?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 10:21 AM
: June 04, 2008 10:21 AM
its called sexual harasment and its illegal
you can sue him for free and get lots of money and teach the sicko a lession.
but i surgest you look to work else where
you can sue him for free and get lots of money and teach the sicko a lession.
but i surgest you look to work else where
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 10:30 AM
: June 04, 2008 10:30 AM
9:39 am
I guess youre not erlich, cause you also use the intershmutz
I guess youre not erlich, cause you also use the intershmutz
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 11:08 AM
: June 04, 2008 11:08 AM
Why would such an ehrliche woman be using the Intershmutz? That's her main problem.
really? whats your excuse???
I really love you "holier than thou" morons who want to preach morality for someone who needs the parnassa.
really? whats your excuse???
I really love you "holier than thou" morons who want to preach morality for someone who needs the parnassa.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 11:20 AM
: June 04, 2008 11:20 AM
its funny as im reading this story i keep thinking Oh i know which buissness she is talking about...
the more i think the more i realize that this story is so common that it could be (sadly) anyware...
the more i think the more i realize that this story is so common that it could be (sadly) anyware...
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 11:28 AM
: June 04, 2008 11:28 AM
if you are what you claim why are you browsing the internet and blogs? did you use your bosses work computer then watch out because he will fire you and your problem will be resolved and when you go to a gudol tell him that you are browsing the internet for non business purposes
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 11:56 AM
: June 04, 2008 11:56 AM
you need to chill out a little i think you really enjoy it but are afraid to let go. in any other than heimishe atmosphere this goes on and it is normal. you are tooo uptight.
Madam,
Please be a little more clear. Nothing you have said amounts to sexual harrassment under the law.
In fact, one might interpret your message as meaning you don't want your boss to speak to you at all.
What would be your reaction if tomorrow he came in and said, "I read on the internet that none of you are happy working here so I guess you can all go?"
By the way, it does look like your boss is violating one law, albeit a different one--he's discriminating against men.
How do you like that?
Please be a little more clear. Nothing you have said amounts to sexual harrassment under the law.
In fact, one might interpret your message as meaning you don't want your boss to speak to you at all.
What would be your reaction if tomorrow he came in and said, "I read on the internet that none of you are happy working here so I guess you can all go?"
By the way, it does look like your boss is violating one law, albeit a different one--he's discriminating against men.
How do you like that?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 1:00 PM
: June 04, 2008 1:00 PM
What Yidi : June 04, 2008 9:52 AM commented is probably the best idea However should the workmates not want to risk their job you might want to consider getting the little booklet "9:00 to 5:00" and leave it on his desk this booklet is a MUST for every single person working in an office! GOOD LUCK!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 1:06 PM
: June 04, 2008 1:06 PM
The atmosphere has gotten so bad that everyone just walks around making fun of him and hating him all the time.
Maybe stop with the hating (lo sisna) and the countless other deoraysahs? Just be nice, have a pleasant professional demeanor, do your job and a bit of emunah -- it doesn't have to be exactly the way you imagined the fairy tale.
Maybe stop with the hating (lo sisna) and the countless other deoraysahs? Just be nice, have a pleasant professional demeanor, do your job and a bit of emunah -- it doesn't have to be exactly the way you imagined the fairy tale.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 1:48 PM
: June 04, 2008 1:48 PM
When working with someone 8 hours A day its normal to become friendly and a little personal. Any form of extremism
is ridiculous. O he asked how your life is or how's your family...shut up and pop out a kid!
is ridiculous. O he asked how your life is or how's your family...shut up and pop out a kid!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 2:37 PM
: June 04, 2008 2:37 PM
I understand you grew up in a very sheltered environment. But the world is a big place and hashem doesnt want us to live in a ghetto. He wants us to keep torah and mitzvos and still be part of the world.
You need to learn to talk to all people men, women ,non-jews. That doesnt mean you should let yourself betaken advantage of. Write a letter signed by all the women asking him to politely "back off".
You need to learn to talk to all people men, women ,non-jews. That doesnt mean you should let yourself betaken advantage of. Write a letter signed by all the women asking him to politely "back off".
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 2:53 PM
: June 04, 2008 2:53 PM
thekvetcher said...
you need to chill out a little i think you really enjoy it but are afraid to let go. in any other than heimishe atmosphere this goes on and it is normal. you are tooo uptight.
June 04, 2008 12:03 PM
Hey Kvetcher, You got some serious problems saying this to a frum married women. Just because you don't give a darn about HASHEM and his mitzvos and the issur to protect oneself against an ervah doesn't mean there aren't other people that do care and are disgusted by inappropriate interaction between married women and men that aren't their husbands. You are considered a rosho by your comments and one who causes others to sin as well, and disregards the mitzvos. I pity your soul when you get up to heaven
you need to chill out a little i think you really enjoy it but are afraid to let go. in any other than heimishe atmosphere this goes on and it is normal. you are tooo uptight.
June 04, 2008 12:03 PM
Hey Kvetcher, You got some serious problems saying this to a frum married women. Just because you don't give a darn about HASHEM and his mitzvos and the issur to protect oneself against an ervah doesn't mean there aren't other people that do care and are disgusted by inappropriate interaction between married women and men that aren't their husbands. You are considered a rosho by your comments and one who causes others to sin as well, and disregards the mitzvos. I pity your soul when you get up to heaven
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 3:26 PM
: June 04, 2008 3:26 PM
"I don't understand it if your such a erlicha women what are u doing on the net ecspecially blogging ?"
thats right, i think she went a half mile and he went the other half only to find her going back and pretend nothing happened.
THERE IS SO MANY WAYS TO HANDLE THIS . IF YOU HAVE SUCH A WONDERFULL BACKGROUND, WITH SO MANY WONDERFULL CO-WORKERS WHO PROBEBLY ARE BELONGING TO A KAHILA AND THERE IS PPL IN EVERY KEHILA TO DEAL WITH IT PRIVATELY,
FURTHERMORE, YOUR ACTION (WRITING IT HERE) WILL LEAD TO "RAAISING THE EYEBROWS" AND IT WILL GET SO PUBLIC, YOU GOT TO BE BLIND NOT TO SEE THAT COMING............unless you intend otherwise.
ITS A bishe vcharpe THAT A JEWISH BLOG HAS THAT KIND OF TALK ON IT "KOL HAMARBE BEDIVREI CHEISHECK....."
thats right, i think she went a half mile and he went the other half only to find her going back and pretend nothing happened.
THERE IS SO MANY WAYS TO HANDLE THIS . IF YOU HAVE SUCH A WONDERFULL BACKGROUND, WITH SO MANY WONDERFULL CO-WORKERS WHO PROBEBLY ARE BELONGING TO A KAHILA AND THERE IS PPL IN EVERY KEHILA TO DEAL WITH IT PRIVATELY,
FURTHERMORE, YOUR ACTION (WRITING IT HERE) WILL LEAD TO "RAAISING THE EYEBROWS" AND IT WILL GET SO PUBLIC, YOU GOT TO BE BLIND NOT TO SEE THAT COMING............unless you intend otherwise.
ITS A bishe vcharpe THAT A JEWISH BLOG HAS THAT KIND OF TALK ON IT "KOL HAMARBE BEDIVREI CHEISHECK....."
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 3:44 PM
: June 04, 2008 3:44 PM
The reality of such a specific & unfortunate situation, however, can certainly be believed & understood.
My personal advice though, would be as follows; Go to your local Jewish Bookstore and purchase a few copies of an English/Hebrew/Yiddish Sefer that discusses the Halachos of the Jewish workplace and place them prominently on your workspace, and with the permission of your co-workers, in their work areas as well.
This can turn into a real win-win situation, where your and All in your work environment can indeed relearn the proper Torah way of dealing with the circumstances.
Doing this would be an true overcoming of the challenge that Hashem has placed you in. It may cost you a few dollars, but in comparison to the creation of such a True Kiddush Shem Shamayim, it's more than well worth it!
I'm already starting to get jealous of the schar you can get for helping create another place on this planet the RBS"A can be proud of.
Be strong! Klal Yisroel needs you to do the right thing!
My personal advice though, would be as follows; Go to your local Jewish Bookstore and purchase a few copies of an English/Hebrew/Yiddish Sefer that discusses the Halachos of the Jewish workplace and place them prominently on your workspace, and with the permission of your co-workers, in their work areas as well.
This can turn into a real win-win situation, where your and All in your work environment can indeed relearn the proper Torah way of dealing with the circumstances.
Doing this would be an true overcoming of the challenge that Hashem has placed you in. It may cost you a few dollars, but in comparison to the creation of such a True Kiddush Shem Shamayim, it's more than well worth it!
I'm already starting to get jealous of the schar you can get for helping create another place on this planet the RBS"A can be proud of.
Be strong! Klal Yisroel needs you to do the right thing!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 4:43 PM
: June 04, 2008 4:43 PM
For this young chassidiche girl maybe you should have went for higher education. I never knew it was sexual harassment for someone to offer you coffee or water!!! Amazing!
You can either get a better job, OH wait you can't because you dont have a diploma, and you can't sue.
And he isnt breaking any laws.
Last but not least, I hav an issue with you calling yourselves GIRLS. Are you not a married woman? Or are you a little girl, that is afraid of a man?
You know I grew up like you, with no male interaction, and I am not the least bit powerless like you.
You can either get a better job, OH wait you can't because you dont have a diploma, and you can't sue.
And he isnt breaking any laws.
Last but not least, I hav an issue with you calling yourselves GIRLS. Are you not a married woman? Or are you a little girl, that is afraid of a man?
You know I grew up like you, with no male interaction, and I am not the least bit powerless like you.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 4:47 PM
: June 04, 2008 4:47 PM
get over it; you're not in high school anymore - bottom line is - you continue to CHOOSE and work there every day and this guy is paying you. if you don't like his attitude or his cordiality - leave!!!!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 6:11 PM
: June 04, 2008 6:11 PM
anon 4:47 pm,
you are a hating, cruel person. if you hate the religious ways so much do me a favor and get off our sites
you are a hating, cruel person. if you hate the religious ways so much do me a favor and get off our sites
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 6:56 PM
: June 04, 2008 6:56 PM
your probably the ugly one that no one looks at! thats very stressfull and upsetting u totally understand u!
I'm really sorry
I'm really sorry
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 7:27 PM
: June 04, 2008 7:27 PM
i feel in your blog that this isn't a sincere post! also i don't see yet what he did wrong! he is friendlier that your old boss ok, fact most people dislike there bosses! the way U behave back is the way u get your respect! keep your distance and setup your barier thats what its all about.
not all people are perfect if thats how he is its up to u to set the standerds! not sit on blog and post shtisim like this.
u seem like a unhappy person that loves to complain, and being holier than thou gives u plesure.
yippy fliying doodle do to u!!!
option 1. e is to leave
option 2. is up to u to be profesional
option 3. is to focus on your work not this crap!
option 4. all of the above
not all people are perfect if thats how he is its up to u to set the standerds! not sit on blog and post shtisim like this.
u seem like a unhappy person that loves to complain, and being holier than thou gives u plesure.
yippy fliying doodle do to u!!!
option 1. e is to leave
option 2. is up to u to be profesional
option 3. is to focus on your work not this crap!
option 4. all of the above
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 7:35 PM
: June 04, 2008 7:35 PM
He asked you whether you want a coffee or water??? How dare that sheigetz do such a thing?
Get a life!
Get a life!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 8:19 PM
: June 04, 2008 8:19 PM
a bunch of nuts. get a life and quit so MABEY hes a pig MOVE ON
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 8:41 PM
: June 04, 2008 8:41 PM
Lady, this is VERY worrisome!!!
First he oofers water, then coffee.
What next? Dinner at a romantic restaurant? Will it be Landau's OR Island Glatt? You do worry, don't you?
First he oofers water, then coffee.
What next? Dinner at a romantic restaurant? Will it be Landau's OR Island Glatt? You do worry, don't you?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 8:54 PM
: June 04, 2008 8:54 PM
dear 326 pm anon you know anything ? this is a farse this comes right out of the pages of the unchosen by hella winston. oh maybe you dont read. do you? here is a guy that by any otherr standards is trying to motivate and keep a sense of value in his office. di the writer say if the boss is a heimisher? is he even a jew? oh he is a coffee buyer shame on him second of all if the woman who wrote this had a husband that went to work she could stay home and take care of the house rather than worry about supporting him in a treifa sviva. and ill tell you another thing, if a woman cant deal with this she should never go out of the house perhaps a man on the train might give up his seat for her and she will think he is hitting on her. one more thing it really is a disgusting thing that heimishe vibels cant say thank you when you hold the door open for them in boro park. there is no issur to show a little hakaras hatoiv. is there you are a socially defunct individual maybe i should stop giving charity to heimishe causes.
ok, ok. I have the answer. Print out this complete post and all the comments and leave it on his desk.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 9:10 PM
: June 04, 2008 9:10 PM
for all of those asking what this erliche women is doing on a BLOG ask that to yourself, if you really think this blog is so bad dont go on it yourself. dont fix bad in others untill you fix the bad in yourself.
p.s you also have to be don l'caf z'chus dont just jump to comclusions
p.s you also have to be don l'caf z'chus dont just jump to comclusions
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 04, 2008 11:41 PM
: June 04, 2008 11:41 PM
Thank you and good morning America! I want to tell you about my relative who is a sheitl macher. She goes to a large manufacturer in brooklyn who will only employes tall s-xy girls and she sees what goes on there OMG! The "frim" owner (even though the biz goes in his wifes name)is always around where ladies are trying on wigs!! He makes proste comments and has the chutzpa to compliment the ladies whilst stroking his fingers through the hair of his wigs! When will the rabonim do something about this madness? I heard from a former employee "this should be the biggest problem there". Gevald!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 12:07 AM
: June 05, 2008 12:07 AM
1:48, while your intentions are pure, they are completely off the mark. You must be a male. As a female who is not Chassidish and who has worked in a number of different locations, I can tell you this guy is up to no good. This also does not amount to sexual harrassment based on the "benign" communications. However, the girls should either collectively agree to give him the cold shoulder, ie: not responding at all to comments or conversation, or collectively leave.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 12:21 AM
: June 05, 2008 12:21 AM
I feel for your boss. Try to understand his point of view. He buys a business and tries to be nice to the girls and the more he tries, the more they get upset. He is confused and unsure as to why the air is so tense. Why are they so upset at me? So he tries even harder.
I don't know anything about your marriage, but I can tell you this. If you don't learn the skill of communicating and talking over things before they go out of control, your marriage won't last for too long.
Communication is the key.
I don't know anything about your marriage, but I can tell you this. If you don't learn the skill of communicating and talking over things before they go out of control, your marriage won't last for too long.
Communication is the key.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 12:49 AM
: June 05, 2008 12:49 AM
be happy working for someone who gives you coffee most chassidishe employers have the attitude to create a sweatshop environment. youre lucky to get to go to the bathroom.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 2:23 AM
: June 05, 2008 2:23 AM
Just move on..... the new owner
as you related has done nothing
wrong.
If you do not write that you
told him to stop talking to
you. It really is your problem
that you are uncomfortable
with men.
As long as he stays within
the guidline of the law.....
case closed. If he makes
sexual remarks... than may
have a case.
as you related has done nothing
wrong.
If you do not write that you
told him to stop talking to
you. It really is your problem
that you are uncomfortable
with men.
As long as he stays within
the guidline of the law.....
case closed. If he makes
sexual remarks... than may
have a case.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 6:40 AM
: June 05, 2008 6:40 AM
i had a very smiar problem, i am male, clean cut, i work out, dress decent. gota a job at a jewish firm. the bosses wife a sheitel lady. nicely put together. always comes into my cubicle sits down ostensibly for business purposes, he skirt moves just above her knee , and she wears either a tight top or low cut.
she tells me her husband works too many hours. How she never goes out with him. sometimes she brings me a drink or nosh
its so hard for me to do my time sensitive work.
she tells me her husband works too many hours. How she never goes out with him. sometimes she brings me a drink or nosh
its so hard for me to do my time sensitive work.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 6:56 AM
: June 05, 2008 6:56 AM
Here is the problem with "your velt". You've created a fake world to live in. First, get an education. Congats on finising High School, now how about making something of yourself in the world and stop being a secretary. Second, get a real job and make loads of money to support your family in kollel.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 8:27 AM
: June 05, 2008 8:27 AM
Having read this post and all the comments I can fully understand why there are such problems in the frumme kehillas in New York vis-a-vis Kedushas Yisrael and breakdown in sholom bayis. Wife swapping began in Sedom and we all know what happened there.
There is nothing wrong with a concerned employer trying to make the workplace a safe area for his employees, but there are certain lines that should not be crossed and all communication between the male and female workers in a workplace should be kept formal and not on first name terms.
For an employer to address his female employees by the first name is avizrayhu d'giluy arayois which is compounded when the employee is married.
All this knocking of the lady who wrote the post indicates an enormous lack of respect for another Jew and a considerable amount of self hate for people who know what is right and what is wrong but nevertheless still choose the wrong.
I fully back the writer of the post for her concerns and can confirm that my wife says the same things herself. She is happy that in the school where she teaches the Menahel fully understands what the torah demands of us in terms of tznius and never ever calls any of the female staff by their first names. He takes this even further by always introducing himself on the phone as "Rabbi..." and not his first name, whereas if I answer the phone he always introduces himself by his first name.
There is nothing wrong with a concerned employer trying to make the workplace a safe area for his employees, but there are certain lines that should not be crossed and all communication between the male and female workers in a workplace should be kept formal and not on first name terms.
For an employer to address his female employees by the first name is avizrayhu d'giluy arayois which is compounded when the employee is married.
All this knocking of the lady who wrote the post indicates an enormous lack of respect for another Jew and a considerable amount of self hate for people who know what is right and what is wrong but nevertheless still choose the wrong.
I fully back the writer of the post for her concerns and can confirm that my wife says the same things herself. She is happy that in the school where she teaches the Menahel fully understands what the torah demands of us in terms of tznius and never ever calls any of the female staff by their first names. He takes this even further by always introducing himself on the phone as "Rabbi..." and not his first name, whereas if I answer the phone he always introduces himself by his first name.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 9:05 AM
: June 05, 2008 9:05 AM
To all you fine gentlemen criticizng the incincerity of this post, and the lack of evidence stop fooling yourselves.
US GUYS KNOW VERY WELL WHY SOME GUYS OFFER COFFEE AND OTHERS OFFER COFFEE. Its the women that think all our intentions are nice 'He is such a great guy' We know when we are trying to flirt and when we are sincere.
So stop whining about there is nothing wrong with offering cofee.
Some are offering coffee to be nice and others offer coffee cuz they want more. We know who they are and what their intentions are; its the women who usually don't get it.
Interacting with women ecspecially married women is something to be very concerned with as the close proximity of the office environment can lead to friendships thar G-D forbid can result in very grave serious sins and the destruction of a happy (or even not happy) marrige. Regardless of the case either scenario is a situation that our HASHEM commands us to be killed rather than to transgress. It is well documented in american culture that many terrible situations that destoy marriges result from interactions in the work environment where people are not careful to set up boundaries, and wher one thing CAN lead to another(not in every scenario but definitely things can happen). Let us not stoop to the level of others when we are commanded by our Torah to refrain from this terrible sin and to be carefull with our interactions with the opposite gender.
To all those that belittle what this women is concerned with no arguements will change your philosophies; you obviously have no regard for our mitzvah to refrain from arayos. But those of us that seek truth know that without the necessary boundaries, and knowing that some men have good intentions when offering coffe and others don't know that being carefull is always a good thing.
US GUYS KNOW VERY WELL WHY SOME GUYS OFFER COFFEE AND OTHERS OFFER COFFEE. Its the women that think all our intentions are nice 'He is such a great guy' We know when we are trying to flirt and when we are sincere.
So stop whining about there is nothing wrong with offering cofee.
Some are offering coffee to be nice and others offer coffee cuz they want more. We know who they are and what their intentions are; its the women who usually don't get it.
Interacting with women ecspecially married women is something to be very concerned with as the close proximity of the office environment can lead to friendships thar G-D forbid can result in very grave serious sins and the destruction of a happy (or even not happy) marrige. Regardless of the case either scenario is a situation that our HASHEM commands us to be killed rather than to transgress. It is well documented in american culture that many terrible situations that destoy marriges result from interactions in the work environment where people are not careful to set up boundaries, and wher one thing CAN lead to another(not in every scenario but definitely things can happen). Let us not stoop to the level of others when we are commanded by our Torah to refrain from this terrible sin and to be carefull with our interactions with the opposite gender.
To all those that belittle what this women is concerned with no arguements will change your philosophies; you obviously have no regard for our mitzvah to refrain from arayos. But those of us that seek truth know that without the necessary boundaries, and knowing that some men have good intentions when offering coffe and others don't know that being carefull is always a good thing.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 9:14 AM
: June 05, 2008 9:14 AM
A charpe and a busha. All of you who are questioning this woman's erlichkeit, because she is blogging on the internet. Hey, look who talking. Where are you blogging on, not on the interschmutz? Get a life, man.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 9:32 AM
: June 05, 2008 9:32 AM
FROM THE GOLEM:
EVERY FRUM MEIDEL / VEIBEL SHOULD HAVE A "YICHUD SEFER" IN HER POCKET BOOK AT ALL TIMES, (CREDIT: ANON. 4:43) AND WHILE IN OFFICE IT SHOULD INNOCENTLY BE DISPLAYD ON HER DESK. THIS IS POISEN TO ANY "CHAZER". IF YOU WORK BY SOMEONE HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO TALK TO YOU AND OFFER YOU WATER AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG FOR YOU TO COMMUNICATE WITH HIM. IF HE CROSSES THE LINE A BIT YOU RESPOND - ALITTLE LOUD - WITH A SERIOUS QUESTION OF THE FAMILIAR EEXXCCUUSSEE MMEE!!! EEXXCCUUSSEE MMEE!!! BUT THAT LITTLE SEFER WILL BE THE GATEKEEPER FOR ANY TROUBLE MAKER. THE SAME GOES WHEN YOU RIDE A TAXI JUST READ A FEW MINUTES. AND WE SHOULD ALLWAYS REMEMBER THE MISHNE "EIN ROIA VOIZEN SHMAAS VCHOL MAASECHU BSEFER NICTUVIN". ON THIS WORLD AND ON THE OTHER WORLD. TO GET THIS LITTLE SEFER GO TO ANY JUDAICA STORE OR YOU CAN BUY IT ONLINE.
THE GOLEM
EVERY FRUM MEIDEL / VEIBEL SHOULD HAVE A "YICHUD SEFER" IN HER POCKET BOOK AT ALL TIMES, (CREDIT: ANON. 4:43) AND WHILE IN OFFICE IT SHOULD INNOCENTLY BE DISPLAYD ON HER DESK. THIS IS POISEN TO ANY "CHAZER". IF YOU WORK BY SOMEONE HE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO TALK TO YOU AND OFFER YOU WATER AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG FOR YOU TO COMMUNICATE WITH HIM. IF HE CROSSES THE LINE A BIT YOU RESPOND - ALITTLE LOUD - WITH A SERIOUS QUESTION OF THE FAMILIAR EEXXCCUUSSEE MMEE!!! EEXXCCUUSSEE MMEE!!! BUT THAT LITTLE SEFER WILL BE THE GATEKEEPER FOR ANY TROUBLE MAKER. THE SAME GOES WHEN YOU RIDE A TAXI JUST READ A FEW MINUTES. AND WE SHOULD ALLWAYS REMEMBER THE MISHNE "EIN ROIA VOIZEN SHMAAS VCHOL MAASECHU BSEFER NICTUVIN". ON THIS WORLD AND ON THE OTHER WORLD. TO GET THIS LITTLE SEFER GO TO ANY JUDAICA STORE OR YOU CAN BUY IT ONLINE.
THE GOLEM
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 9:38 AM
: June 05, 2008 9:38 AM
to anon 6:56 - stop dreaming you big piggy...
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 9:45 AM
: June 05, 2008 9:45 AM
I am not a business owner but if I would be I would want to act as nice as I can tyo my employees without sexual harrasment. I am an employee and when I go to get lunch I go around asking Everyone including men and women if they need anything. However, I don't think the boss has good intentions because I never get into any girl's personal life and ask them what they like. Thats it!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 11:26 AM
: June 05, 2008 11:26 AM
As a frum man, I am appalled at what everyone is doing, knocking the letter writer. If her boss is trying to 'be nice' or motivate the girls, IT CAN BE DONE AS A GROUP. There is nothing wrong with the boss bringing in a case of water bottles, or even pizza, and telling everybody to help themselves. But, if he is doing it on a one to one basis, MAJOR PROBLEMS.
I have been working for over 30 years. I have NEVER had a female employee, frum or not even Jewish, in my office WITHOUT ANOTHER PERSON in attendance.
I attended Baruch College in NYC. I remember a NICE CHASIDISHE yungerman that would come to school EVERY NIGHT at about 9:00 PM "on his way home from work" and OFFER RIDES TO ALL THE GIRLS. IF there was room left in the car, Ok he'd give one of the bochurim a ride, also. He went from midtown to Lexington + 23rd, THEN to the Lower East Side, then to Bensonhurst or Flatbush,then to BP. Yea, AND HE DID IT FOR THE S'CHAR MITZVA! I have a bridge for sale, if you beleive that.
I have been working for over 30 years. I have NEVER had a female employee, frum or not even Jewish, in my office WITHOUT ANOTHER PERSON in attendance.
I attended Baruch College in NYC. I remember a NICE CHASIDISHE yungerman that would come to school EVERY NIGHT at about 9:00 PM "on his way home from work" and OFFER RIDES TO ALL THE GIRLS. IF there was room left in the car, Ok he'd give one of the bochurim a ride, also. He went from midtown to Lexington + 23rd, THEN to the Lower East Side, then to Bensonhurst or Flatbush,then to BP. Yea, AND HE DID IT FOR THE S'CHAR MITZVA! I have a bridge for sale, if you beleive that.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 12:20 PM
: June 05, 2008 12:20 PM
A boss can be nice, but, he should call his female employees by their titles (Miss or Mrs. So and So), not their first names. As for his offering coffee or water, I guess it depends how he is doing the offering. Is he doing it when he is having some also, in full of the girls (ladies) (Yes, we "girls" call ourselves that even in our 70's), so he is just being polite, or is he going out of his way to make himself heimish with them. i think that should be the factor to look into.I think the writer is a very proper frum young lady with the right hashkofos, and I wouldn't knock her use of the internet, it all depends on what you do with the internet that makes it a problem. Her concerns are valid. Yes, all the girls in the office should get together and tell their boss politely, that he is making them uncomfortable and how they would like him to call them.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 05, 2008 11:57 PM
: June 05, 2008 11:57 PM
you mean people exploit women for their good looks and not for their brains? Mua ha ha
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 06, 2008 9:54 AM
: June 06, 2008 9:54 AM
I think you should all put on Burkas & this will solve your problems.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 06, 2008 11:32 AM
: June 06, 2008 11:32 AM
I might be wrong, but it seems to me that either you are a bunch of naive girls, and a psychotic sicko is trying to intimidate you, for his pleasure's sake.. Or he might not be a sicko at all, only a naive guy who tries to play nice-guy to impress his employees, and doesn't know the R U L E S! ! What doesn't make sense to me is, if you feel intimidated by his behavior, calling you by your first names, offering drinks, you should be strong enough to ask him that you insist he call you buy your last names, like your previous boss did. Explain to him that the girls felt more comfortable when they were called by their last names.. He can't argue with that! About the coffee and drinks, if you feel intimidated, just refuse it ALL THE TIME, till he'll get tired of trying.. After all it takes two to tango. You don't have to make a group protest, you can simply choose two girls/ladies to speak with him nicely but FIRMLY about the main issues that bother all of you. I was employed once where a few women employees would innocently call the male manager by his first name. Surprisingly, he was very intimidated by it, and asked me if I can speak to the employees to please call him by his last name. (I never called him by his first name) They were very shocked and surprised, because he was a very young yungerman, and the ladies were much much older than him. They immediately respected his request, and admired him for his Yiras Shamayim.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 08, 2008 2:09 AM
: June 08, 2008 2:09 AM
To the Kvetcher June 4, 9:03,
I can easily understand your frustration about the heimish vibels not saying thank you when holding the doors for them. I am a very chassidishe heimish woman myself. I feel ashamed to admit that in our chasiddish community there is some neglect in showing hakoros hatov for males who act with so much compassion and mentchlichkeit. Even though most ultra Chasidish men do the same acts of kindness, they'd rather not want to hear the woman's verbal "thank you" because of "kol Ha-ishu", therefore some women won't say thank you verbally, when in their heart they sure appreciate your good deed. I know, because I am constantly in both situations. I, personally, always say thank you to the biggest frummack if he holds the door for me, regardless of how he might feel about the "kol ha-ishu" issue, because I just can't (physically) ignore the fact that I have to show hakoros hatov! but I must admit that I do feel a bit uncomfortable at times, because maybe he felt intimidated by my saying thank you.......
I know many very chassidish heimish women and Rebetzins who show much respect and thankfulness at all times, regardless of whatever gender. I think that intelligence and proper upbringing play a big role in knowing how and when to deal with all situations.
I just hope that my response to your post wont open a new theme in this thread, because that wasn't my intention here.
p.s. please don't stop your charities to the haimish communities because of a few naive vibelech. Hashem will repay you.
I can easily understand your frustration about the heimish vibels not saying thank you when holding the doors for them. I am a very chassidishe heimish woman myself. I feel ashamed to admit that in our chasiddish community there is some neglect in showing hakoros hatov for males who act with so much compassion and mentchlichkeit. Even though most ultra Chasidish men do the same acts of kindness, they'd rather not want to hear the woman's verbal "thank you" because of "kol Ha-ishu", therefore some women won't say thank you verbally, when in their heart they sure appreciate your good deed. I know, because I am constantly in both situations. I, personally, always say thank you to the biggest frummack if he holds the door for me, regardless of how he might feel about the "kol ha-ishu" issue, because I just can't (physically) ignore the fact that I have to show hakoros hatov! but I must admit that I do feel a bit uncomfortable at times, because maybe he felt intimidated by my saying thank you.......
I know many very chassidish heimish women and Rebetzins who show much respect and thankfulness at all times, regardless of whatever gender. I think that intelligence and proper upbringing play a big role in knowing how and when to deal with all situations.
I just hope that my response to your post wont open a new theme in this thread, because that wasn't my intention here.
p.s. please don't stop your charities to the haimish communities because of a few naive vibelech. Hashem will repay you.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 08, 2008 3:36 AM
: June 08, 2008 3:36 AM
All of you bored tina beigels, please get a life!
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 12, 2008 1:08 AM
: June 12, 2008 1:08 AM
To Momche,
About the young guy in the store, can it also be assumed that he just wanted some more respect, and therefore asked to be called "MR." so he shouldn't feel like an "Amiga, or Johnnny.. Moishee..? how much older were the much much older ladies?? Yiras Shamayim.. Hah?
About the young guy in the store, can it also be assumed that he just wanted some more respect, and therefore asked to be called "MR." so he shouldn't feel like an "Amiga, or Johnnny.. Moishee..? how much older were the much much older ladies?? Yiras Shamayim.. Hah?
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 12, 2008 9:16 PM
: June 12, 2008 9:16 PM
For your information sir, the ladies in the place could have been the mothers of his older siblings.. The yungerman is 23 years old, and the majority of the ladies/bubbies are in their fifties.. Truthfully we also assumed that he might have wanted to achieve a certain respect.. but I honestly believe that it was for both reasons. respect and Yiras Shamayim.
Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 12, 2008 10:00 PM
: June 12, 2008 10:00 PM
Maybe your husband could get a job and you could stay at home.
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Comment Credit ---This article posted by : June 19, 2008 8:21 AM
: June 19, 2008 8:21 AM
